Featured Those Who Never Heard the Gospel

Having a chance at salvation--is basic to the flap between the followers of Jon Chauvin and Jacobus Arminius. It has to do with election and predestination and the Sovereignty of God and the Grace of God. Many folk have a problem with God's apparent unfairness in saving some and not all. If God treatly us fairly, we would all go to hell. This is what the Grace of God is all about.

Obviously, all are not going to heaven. Why? Limited Atonement would certainly be a posible answer. We must give an account for ourselves--what have we done with Christ? Let God take care of the others according to His sovereign grace and good pleasure of His Will. See Eph. 1-4.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

You hold true to form:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1860780#post1860780

Come on JF, build your case from scripture; as Tom Butler likes to say, flesh it out there brother!

 

Are you deliberately skewing this scripture to make it fit your soteriology? Where in the text is A LAW even mentioned? It's NOT a law, it's THE LAW:

6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
17 But if thou bearest the name of a Jew, and restest upon the law, and gloriest in God,
18 and knowest his will, and approvest the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law,
19 and art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them that are in darkness,
20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having in the law the form of knowledge and of the truth;
21 thou therefore that teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou rob temples?
23 thou who gloriest in the law, through thy transgression of the law dishonorest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, even as it is written.
25 For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision.
26 If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
27 and shall not the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who with the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law?

Please, by all means, flesh it out, from the context point this 'moral code' out to me.

Again, are you deliberating skewing the scripture? Or is it this 'tunnel vision' that seems to afflict so many with this passage?

These are DOERS of the law.

These are non Jews who neither have THE LAW nor have heard THE LAW who are doing by nature the things of the law. These, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts.

Like so many others you're fixated on that word 'conscience'.

Compare:

in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2:15

With:

The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: Ro 8:16

A good conscience is a very desirable thing to have:

For our glorifying is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and sincerity of God, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we behaved ourselves in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. 2 Cor 1:12

having a good conscience; that, wherein ye are spoken against, they may be put to shame who revile your good manner of life in Christ. 1 Pet 3:16

Herein I also exercise myself to have a conscience void of offence toward God and men always. Acts 24:16

which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3:21

Wherefore ye must needs be in subjection, not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience sake. Ro 13:5

Deacons in like manner must be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 1 Tim 3:8,9

I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers in a pure conscience, how unceasing is my remembrance of thee in my supplications, night and day 2 Tim 1:3

And Paul, looking stedfastly on the council, said, Brethren, I have lived before God in all good conscience until this day. Acts 23:1

Where does the scripture say that OUR faith applies the righteousness of Christ to us? Please, flesh that out.

Again, show this 'moral code' you keep talking about from the context.

 

There is no salvation by grace presented in Romans 1:18-3:20.

Particularly in Romans 2 as the aim of Paul is to show the basis of condemnation not salvation.

It is the self-righteous (abstract neither Jew or Gentile) but hypocritically deceived lost man who believes his works will justify him in the day of judgement that is being described in Romans 2:1-16

It is the self-righteous but hypocrtically deceived Jew who thinks he can pass the judgment by his law obedience in Romans 2:17-3:8.

There is no "grace" or "mercy" of "new covenant" or "Spirit" or "saved" or "faith" or anything else pertaining to true salvation mentioned in Romans 2:6-15.

The only reason for the mention of the "gospel" in verse 16 is in keeping with Paul's line of reasoning that judgement not salvation is the theme. The gospel presents the ultimate standard of judgment in the Person and righteousness of Jesus Christ.

The whole point of bringing into this consideration Romans 2:14-15 is to demonstrate that those non-Jews have a STANDARD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS that is compatible with THE LAW given to the Jews which will serve as a BASIS FOR JUDGEMENT not salvation.

Romans 2:6-16 is all about JUDGEMENT UNDER THE LAW in regard to SELF-RIGHTOEUS HYPOCRITS! Self-righteous hypocrits precede it (Rom. 2:1-5) and self-righteous hypocrits follow it (Rom. 2:17-3:8). Pauls point from Romans 1:18 to Romans 3:23 is to prove that the wrath of God revealed from heaven is JUST because "there is none that doeth good, no, not one" There is none righteous, no, not one and therefore "there is NO DIFFERENCE for all have sinned."

To transform Romans 2:6-16 into a judgment of the saints is to not only pervert the context but the judgement of saints as the saints are already GLORIFIED at the point of resurrection (1 Thes. 4:14-17; 1 Cor. 15:51-57) fitted and determined for heaven BEFORE they ever stand in judgement "according to their works" proving their works have nothing to do with final destination but only for "rewards" (1 Cor. 3:11-15).

Paul is merely demonstrating to the hypocrit their works will be examined under the just principles that characterize the judgement of God - Rom. 2:5-16. The ultimate standard to judge them will be the righteousness found in Person of Christ (v. 16).

 

Curious...isn't this begging the question as we have no way of knowing who has or hasn't heard something?

 

Faith is worthless and meaningless apart from a proper object of faith. The proper object of faith is spelled out clearly in Romans 3:24-26 which introduces Pauls systemtatic theological discourse on justification by faith and it is clearly spelled out in Romans 4:22-5:2 which concludes this discourse.

The "righteousness" is found in the Person and works of Christ. Faith has His Person and works as its object. That is precisely why we are justified "by faith" due to the object of faith. Righteousness is IMPUTED to the BELIEVER because the gospel presents Christ and his death and resurrection as the complete "propitation" or satisfaction as the proper object of faith.

 

Ann,
There are severely autistic people who are so severe you cannot take them to church. There are people so mentally disabled they do not understand. Now, with that in mind, are you also claiming that the mentally retarded do not go to heaven when they die?

 

There is one way of salvation, and that is through Jesus Christ.
Having said that I believe the Lord set a precedent through the example given in the Scriptures with David's infant when he died. David prayed for his child while the child was yet alive that the Lord would show mercy that he might live. But the child lived. When the child died, David got up, changed his clothing and mourned no more.
Why the change. He explained to his servants: I cannot bring the child back to me. I will go to him; he shall not come to me.
David was confident that when he died we would go and meet his child in heaven.

As it was with David so it will be with other infants. We can be confident that in the mercy of the Lord God will take them to heaven. We throw ourselves on the mercy of God. This also would be the case with mentally-challenged individuals who have no capacity to understand the gospel.

 

Why was the book of John written?

John 20:31 (KJV) But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

That people might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that believing they might have life through His name.

Paul and Silas, when asked "What must I do to be saved?" answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

Now, why do you suppose that Paul and Silas didn't tell that jailer to just do good? Why didn't they keep him in ignorance of Jesus Christ?

Oh, that's right... because one must believe that Jesus is the Christ or one cannot obtain eternal life.

John 3:18 (KJV) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Why did Paul write to the Ephesians "by grace are ye saved through faith"?

Oh that's right, because Jesus said "He that believeth not is condemned already."

All men must come to Christ for Salvation, He is the way, the truth and the life. No man can come to the Father except through Christ. They must believe in Him, or they will die in their sins.

Yes, even the mentally challenged, even the autistic must believe in Christ or they will die in their sins. They, like any other man who walked this Earth, must believe in Christ or they die lost in sin... All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God...even the mentally challenged.

 

So, you believe as I do about this.
This brings this discussion further, to the people who are not mentally disabled, to the people who never heard the true gospel, from people in remote areas, and even to people who have been raised in a false religion.
They have not heard the truth.

 

Galatians 3:22 (KJV) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Notice it did not say
But the scripture hath concluded all except the mentally challenged under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Nor did it say
But the scripture hath concluded all except those who have not heard under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

All includes every man, woman and child that ever walked the face of this Earth... even the mentally challenged. They too are under sin and must believe on Jesus Christ to be freed from sin.

 

Faith comes from hearing the word of God.

 

So how do you know that God does not give them the capacity to hear?

After all, God's Word declares that all are under sin and that to receive eternal life one must have faith in His Son.

 

Jesus says had he not spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin, since he did speak to them, they have no excuse for their sins.

Faith comes from hearing. If someone hears the truth and rejects it, that is one thing. If someone never hears the truth, because it was not told to them, or because they are mentally disabled and cannot hear the truth, then they are not guilty of sin.

If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin, John 15:22.

John 15:24 If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.

 

You and steadfast are speaking out of ignorance. I have worked with the mentally disabled. There are those who cannot be taught about God and Jesus.

Now stop being prideful, humble yourselves. Are you incapable of learning even earthly truths about the disabled? If you cannot understand earthly truths, then how can you be taught about spiritual things?