"those whom he called he also justified"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by whatever, Apr 25, 2006.

  1. whatever

    whatever
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    What is the nature of this calling in Romans 8:30?
     
  2. doulous

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    This calling is unto salvation and and stresses our future glorification as being so sure it is in the past tense (English) and aorist tense (Greek).
     
  3. Hope of Glory

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    The calling is unto glory. That's our hope; it's a hope of glory. It's not a hope of salvation. We have the ability to know that we're spiritually saved.
     
  4. Rippon

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    It is effectual . It is not a general calling . This is the irresistible call which takes one ultimately to glory . This is a link in that wonderful golden chain of Romans 8:30 . The Lord will not lose any of His elect ones -- those who God has chosen .
     
  5. whatever

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    I also think it's referring to effectual calling. I would really like to know what some other non-Calvinists think about it. Since all who are called (in this sense) are justified, it apparently isn't the general call to repentance.
     
  6. npetreley

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    It's part of a chain starting with those He foreknew (knew intimately in advance, not knew in advance they were going to respond - check the Greek and you'll see it's the former).

    Those He foreknew -> He predestined -> those He predestined -> He called -> those He called -> He justified -> those He justified -> He glorified.

    That is the same thing as effectual calling, since those He foreknew definitely end up being justifed and glorifited. There's no "if" anywhere in this chain.
     
  7. Rippon

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    The following is from the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith . Again , based on the Savoy Declaration , which was based on the Westminster Confession of Faith ( WCoF ) .

    Chapter 10 : Of Effectual Calling

    1. _____ Those whom God hath predestined unto life [ and them only - WCoF] , he is pleased in his appointed , and accepted time , effectually to call , by his Word and Spirit , out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature , to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ , enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God ; taking away their heart of stone , and giving unto them a heart of flesh ; renewing their wills , and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good , and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ , yet so as they come freely , being made willing by his grace .


    2.___________ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone , not from anything at all foreseen in man , nor from any power or agency in the creature , being wholly passive therein , being dead in sins and trespasses , until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit , he is thereby enabled to answer this call , and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it , and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead .

    4.___________ Others not elected , although they may be called by the ministry of the Word , and may have some common operations of the Spirit , yet not being effectually drawn by the Father , they neither will nor can truly come to Christ , and therefore cannot be saved : much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved ; be they ever so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess .
     
  8. doulous

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    I disagree. It is a description of our salvation. it starts with our calling (which others have rightly pointed out is the "effectual call"), our justification (made righteous in Christ) and our glorification. If this passage isn't salvific I don't know what is.
     
  9. Hope of Glory

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    2 Timothy 1:9: Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    Please note the order ("saved" comes before "called"; they are two separate things joined by the conjunction "and".). Also, please note that salvation is an event, yet justification is durative. Also, please not that our glory is future.

    Our salvation is assured. If you're hoping you're saved, then I feel sorry for you. However, our glory is not assured, and that is what we are hoping for.

    They are not synonymous, and they cannot be unless you ignore the grammar.
     
  10. Calvibaptist

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    I really question your exegesis here (not your ability, just your practice). The calling results in justification. The justification results in glorification. It is specifically a calling unto salvation (justification) which leads, inevitably, to our glorification. And the process started with God's foreknowledge (election) and predestination.
     
  11. Calvibaptist

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    1. 2 Timothy 1:9 is not describing an order of events, so the order in which they are placed is irrelevant. For instance, the purpose and grace is towards the end of the sentence, but is said to have been given before the world began.

    2. No one ever said that "saved" and "called/calling" are the same, so I don't know what slam-dunk point you think you are making.

    1) Both "saved" and "called" are in the aorist tense, meaning punctiliar action.

    2) The word justification isn't even used in this verse. The word "justification" is a noun, not a verb, so has no durative aspect.

    3) Brief word study on "justified" from the Greek, paying special attention to verb tenses. I counted 20 times that the Greek word for justified is used in relation to salvation (if you include the 3 times in James). Here is the breakdown.

    - Future Indicative (no durative aspect)

    Romans 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

    Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    - Present Participle (being a participle, has no relation to time, but to aspect)

    Romans 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

    - Present Infinitive (technically more of a noun than a verb - thus no relation to time)

    Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

    - Aorist Indicative (Punctiliar Action)

    Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

    Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (both uses are aorist indicative)

    1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

    James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

    James 2:25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

    - Aorist Participle (Punctiliar, but no reference to time)

    Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

    Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

    Titus 3:7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    - Present Indicative (Durative)

    Galatians 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. (only the first usage at the beginning of the verse)

    Galatians 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."

    Galatians 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

    James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

    - Future Indicative (obviously not durative, but future in time)

    Galatians 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
    (only the last word is future)

    - Aorist Infinitive (Punctiliar, but not related to time)

    Galatians 2:17 "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!

    - Aorist Subjunctive (Punctiliar)

    Galatians 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
    (middle time)

    Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


    As you can see from these examples, you can hardly come close to making a case that "justified" is always durative and therefore, not salvation. As I have said many times, the word "salvation" in the Scripture is multifaceted. Sometimes it is referring to justification. Sometimes it is referring to our final glorification (the end of our salvation). Sometimes it is referring to the whole process from God's eternal decree of election all the way through to our glorification.


    Which is part of our salvation...

    This is soooo misguided, I almost don't know how to respond. Our glorification is part and parcel of our salvation. It is part of the golden chain in Romans 8:29-30. If it is true of you that you were foreknown by God, then you will be glorified. It is in the aorist tense as if already done by God.

    What is not synonymous? Justification and Salvation? Salvation and Glorification? Justification and Glorification? By the time you got to the end of your post, you mixed up theological terms and lost your point.
     
  12. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    What must I do to be saved?
     
  13. Calvibaptist

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    Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

    What's your point? That the word "believe" is aorist? So what?

    You said "justification" was durative. I proved, by word study, that you have no idea what you are talking about.
     
  14. doulous

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    "Pasty"...thanks for saving me the wordy study travails. You did well...to the glory of God. Enjoy the conference today.
     
  15. Hope of Glory

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    Well, to start with:

    James 2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    "Justified" is in the present tense here. Hmmm...
     
  16. doulous

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    Your not even in context! CalviBaptist provided accurate interpretation of 'justify' in the aorist tense(s). The passage in James is completely out of context. If you believe CalviBaptist was wrong prove it contextually. If not just suck it up and admit your view was wrong. There is no dishonor in that.
     
  17. npetreley

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    The context of that verse (and most of the whole book of James) has nothing to do with justification by works. James is saying that if you SAY you have faith, but it's plain that you never exercise your so-called faith through actions, then your faith is dead, and it isn't true faith at all.

    James is talking about the evidence of true faith. If you see faith in action, then you know that person is justified, because his faith isn't just lip service.
     
  18. Hope of Glory

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    The context is from Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21. You cannot simply ignore one part of it and say, "well, it doesn't count".

    James is a book for the salvation of the soul, which is dependent upon works, and justification is a process that is dependent upon works.

    Spiritual salvation is dependent entirely upon the finished work of the Lord Jesus on the cross. It is by grace.

    The only thing that one has to do with the other is that you must be spiritually alive to be justified. That happens when you're born from above into the family of God.

    Justification is not automatically granted, just because you're in the family.

    BTW, the aorist is punctiliar, not past tense. The building of the temple would be aorist in its entirety, just as the squeezing of the trigger of a gun would be.

    Now, let's look at Luke 1:6: And they were both righteous [just] before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

    The word "righteous" is the same word as "just". How were they found this way? Through works; walking in the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

    Is that how we are spiritually saved: Works?
     

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