Thoughts on wine sermon (and link to one that uses the Bible)

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Feb 25, 2008.

  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c
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    I listened to the thread on alcohol here:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=47490

    I believe it is most fair to hear out the argument so I listened to the mp3 file in it's entirety.
    As I did I took some quick notes.

    I apologize in advance for any typos, I was jotting down quickly.

    Also, if you would like to hear a sermon that actually uses the Bible rather than the wisdom of worldly men, then check out this sermon:

    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=12203124227

    Here are my notes from the first mp3 listed on the other thread:

     
  2. Baptist Believer

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    Dale, you've completely missed the point. You're not supposed to use the whole counsel of scripture, analyze what you hear, or compare it to reality. You're just supposed to accept what the preacher says and abdicate your responsibilties toward God to be discerning and faithful to Jesus instead of your denominational customs.
     
  3. Dale-c

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    Yes, baptist beleiever I realize that.
    :)

    Of course that is why I took the time to take a critical look at what he had to say.

    Really lousy sermon based on mans depraved wisdom and the hope that man can do right in his own strength.
    Of course a Christian cannot show God's grace in his life by living a life of Biblical moderation so we must resort to pagan abstinence.
     
  4. Linda64

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    There is nothing pagan about abstinence from alcohol. To claim that there is, is questioning the salvation of all those who choose to follow God's Word and abstain. And you are clearly questioning the salvation of myself, my husband and many other posters on the BB.
     
  5. dan e.

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    Oh give me a break. As if the other side hasn't questioned the salvation of those who don't abstain (although they CLEARLY believe drunkeness is sin).

    BTW, I'm not questioning anyone's salvation for abstaining. Although I think you're missing the point of what the Bible has to say on this; just as you may think I'm missing it.
     
  6. Dale-c

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    I did nothing of the sort.
    I do not believe that your salvation is based on whether you have a Biblical view of wine or not.

    Your husband has MANY times hinted that he doubted the salvation of any one who drinks, though he will never come out and say one way or the other.
     
  7. dan e.

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    ...because there has been one in the recent past who took a permanant vacation for doing so.
     
  8. swaimj

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    Dale-c said:
    Actually, I thought this was one of his stronger points. His argument was that pure wine in the NT was 7% alcohol, but was usually diluted, thus less than 7%. Today's wine is 14% (he said) with beer and harder stuff having even higher content. In THAT culture, a drinker of the 7% was considered to be immoral, yet today's Christians are drinking higher alcohol percentage substances and saying that it is OK. This was an argument that comes from an understanding of that culture. I think it is a pretty good argument against what many Christians are practicing today.

    Thanks for posting the link to the other sermon on SermonAudio. I think I'll have some time to listen to it tomorrow and I'll try to.
     
  9. StefanM

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    In Greek culture, to drink undiluted wine was considered barbaric. To be sure, Greeks would get drunk, but they'd just take the long way around the block to get there.

    This, IMO, is the best argument against modern-day drinking. Of course, you can come back and say that the quantities of wine have decreased with the increase in alcoholic content. The barbarians that the Greeks had in mind weren't just sipping on a chardonnay. They were imbibing quite heavily.

    I take a moderating position of sorts. I see no use at all for hard liquor. It's far too alcoholic to compare to anything in the Bible. Modern-day wine is significantly more alcoholic than Biblical wine. I believe that the vast majority (and possibly all) of the references in the Bible refer to alcoholic wine. That being said, the alcoholic content (being diluted) isn't comparable to the wine you get at a store today. Beer, IMO, is the closest thing in terms of alcoholic content, but it is highly likely that the wine of the NT era was still diluted in comparison.

    I don't think alcohol is inherently evil. I think it can be used in moderation, but we must bear in mind the differences of alcoholic content. I think that the wisest position is abstinence (which I personally practice), but I see no biblical justification to force that position on others.
     
    #9 StefanM, Feb 25, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2008
  10. StefanM

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    Beer has lower content, generally (around 4%).
     
  11. pinoybaptist

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    I'll drink to that !!:thumbs:


    and munch on this.....:laugh:

     
  12. swaimj

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    StefanM said:
    This argument is essentially the same as the argument the speaker, Check Phelps, made in the MP3 in question. I assume you either listened to his message or were, perhaps coincidentally, using the same source he used for his argument.

    I stand corrected on the percentage of alcohol in beer. I am really not familier with the percentages in various alcoholic drinks.
     
  13. StefanM

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    I didn't listen to the sermon, but I've heard the arguments before.

    I've been drilled in various health courses over the years about how a 12oz. can of beer, a 5 oz glass of wine, and a 1 oz shot of hard liquor are generally equivalent in alcohol content. Invariably, they say something like "All kinds of drinks have the same content," which is wrong (percentage-wise), but I get their point (in terms of servings).
     
  14. JerryL

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    I might add, if grapes are crushed and left to ferment on their own they will go to around 14% depending on the grape.

    "In very general terms a wine fermentation occurs when yeast
    consumes sugar and converts it into approximately half alcohol
    and half CO2 gas (carbonation) by weight.

    For example, if you had five gallons of juice that had 10 pounds
    worth of sugar in it, and you fermented all of that sugar with
    yeast, you would end up with 5 gallons of juice that has roughly
    5 pounds of alcohol in it.

    The other five pounds of sugar would dissipate into the air as
    CO2 (carbonic) gas. So in fact the five gallon batch would become
    five pounds lighter than it was before the fermentation started.

    Realize that the breakdown of alcohol verses gas would not be
    exactly half and half, but usually it would be very close. Some
    variances do occur depending on external factors such as the amount
    of available air, nutrients as well as the type of yeast used.
    But, rest assured that it would be within 46% one way or another.

    It is important to note here that the 10 pounds of sugar that was
    in the five gallon batch may not have come all from sugar you
    added, but partially from the fruit as well. And in some cases,
    such as when making a wine from grapes, there may be no sugar
    required at all. In these cases enough sugar is already in the
    fruit itself to produce a wine with 11 or 12 percent alcohol."

    http://www.eckraus.com/wine-making-101.html
     
    #14 JerryL, Feb 25, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2008
  15. JerryL

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    Let's let them read through this thread and see if they can find who is questioning, Linda.
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=46025&page=2&highlight=hangover

    The reason you two get away with breaking this rule is clear, The mods agree with you on your stance.
     
  16. Linda64

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    You give a link that has absolutely NOTHING to do with my post, then you accuse me of breaking rules. What rules are being broken here?

    BTW, I don't know which mods you are talking about. As far as I am concerned, there are fewer than 5 people on this entire board who have EVER agreed that the Bible teaches total abstinence. But to call total abstinence pagan (which is what Dale-c did) is calling those who believe this is what God's Word teaches, pagan also. That, sir, is questioning their salvation.
     
  17. JerryL

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    Yes, Linda it was entirely about your post. You said people were questioning the salvation of you and your husband and others. I was showing JUST ONE thread where SFIC questioned EVERYone's salvation that believed in moderation. Showing that you were posting a "pot calling the kettle" type post. That thread Mam was just showing one of the threads where you two do it all the time.
     
    #17 JerryL, Feb 25, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2008
  18. Dr. L.T. Ketchum

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    If you didn't listen to the sermon, how do you know what the "arguments" are? (Just for the record, no one was arguing with him.)
    Click Here to hear the message
     
  19. StefanM

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    I was referring to the arguments specifically related to the diluting of wine. I've heard these arguments before. I was simply stating that I did not hear them from the sermon.
     
  20. Dale-c

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    I agree with you here in principle which is why I listened and even took notes.

    I wholeheartedly disagree with you but it is important to know what you are up against in a discussion.
     

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