I don't dispute this, but I argued from a different point. One that stated those whom the Father gave Jesus included two groups. Those whom the Father gave Jesus (all of them) as identified in John 17 because Jesus even states 'those whom you 'gave' me', establishing the full group. I agree here, but it is in verse twelve something is revealed that portrays not just a spiritual keeping but a physical one as well. And since we know that Judas was not apart of the spiritual keeping, THIS keeping refered to by Christ MUSt be different because Jesus states he has kept all the Father gave him and NONE are lost EXCEPT ..." But my question is - what warrents the spiritual sense in verse 12? Not that it can't be implied and direct. But if it indeed must be seen in the spiritual sense we DO have a problem with the sentence structure showing Judas was indeed part of those given to Christ. So I will ask this instead regarding the spiritual. Since it is contrasting one group from another which Christ had. We find the scripture states Christ kept them ...that thou gavest me (meaning all of them)..and none of them is lost, but/except the Son of Perdition..; (paraphrased KJV) OR OR Why can we not postulate this single giving of men (which definately includes Judas because of the sentence structure) be that God gave all of them to Christ but they have different purposes which seperate the two groups? If that be the case it makes more sense to see the 'but/except which includes Judas there only regarding those whom the Father gave to Christ, but NOT including him in those who recieve and believed Christ. So you DO contend that Judas was apart of those the Father God the Son, but that he was kept for another purpose? (presumably to fulfill his part in the prophesy) You seem to be asserting that Judas was given to Christ with the others but for a different purpose. Though all were given to Him at once not all were given for the same purposes. To that I agree and is what I have been trying to say. Thus verse 12 SPECIFIES or Establishes that Christ has kept them all, and lost none the Father gave except for Judas. Please notice that in the verse itself 'kept' is used differently than for 'lost'. One is a physical sense including those who are not lost and the other is in the physical sense revealing who IS lost. Then please explain the sentence structure of verse 12 which places Judas as one of those whom Christ kept but lost so as to fulfill prophesy. I'm not being rude here but seriously want to see you explain away either in the English or Greek (I can read both) how 'not loosing one except for' does not place Judas squarely inside that group given by the Father. No. It might 'seem' right in your eyes but you still have the glaring problem with the scripture that states in essense - All that you have given me I have kept ... and none are lost except for..." What seems right and what the passage actually says' diverge. HEY - I'm not 100% sold myself on the idea though I am strongly arguing for because I want to see something that directly disputes it. And I do have to take scripture for what it states and this HERE is my problem the plain reading of the verse and it's specific sentence structure..