Three days and three nights

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by rstrats, Oct 23, 2012.

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  1. rstrats

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    Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that the phrase "x" days and "x"nights was ever used in the first century or before when it didn’t include at least parts of the "x" days and at least parts of the "x" nights?
     
  2. billwald

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    Don't you "True Believers" ever tire of picking the fly specks out of the pepper?
     
  3. rstrats

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    billwald,

    Do you have any information with regard to the documentation asked for in the OP?
     
  4. Chowmah

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    It was Jesus who spoke of the 3 days AND 3 nights

    JOHN 11 [9] Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.[10] But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

    And He knew how many hours were in a day
     
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  5. Winman

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    I have changed my view on this over the years. What I now believe is this;

    Jesus was crucified on a Thursday, and was placed in the grave before sunset. This is the first day.

    Thursday evening (night) is the first night. To the Jew this was Friday. There were two Sabbaths this week, this was the first Sabbath.

    Friday is the second day.

    Friday evening is the second night. To the Jew this is Saturday and the normal Sabbath. This was the second Sabbath this week.

    Saturday is the third day.

    Saturday evening is the third night. Sunday to the Jew.

    Jesus rose from the dead sometime Saturday evening (Sat./Sun.) before sunrise.

    This gives you three days and three nights.
     
  6. rstrats

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    Chowmah and Winman,

    Do either of you have any information with regard to the documentation asked for in the OP?
     
  7. billwald

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    What kind of documentation do you deem acceptable?
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    You might look at the following site for the inclusive principle:

    https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1949/January/how-long-is-three-days—no.-1
     
  9. rstrats

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    The Biblicist,

    re: "You might look at the following site for the inclusive principle:"


    As regards the Jewish practice of inclusive reckoning and of counting any part of a day as a whole day I would agree, but when "nights" is added to "days" to yield the phrase "3 days AND 3 nights" it normally refers to a measurement of a consecutive time period where "day" refers to the light portion of a 24 hour period and "night" refers to the dark portion of a 24 hour period. No one In the history of apologetics as far as I know has ever presented any historical documentation that the phrase " 3 days AND 3 nights" was a unique first century idiom of Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek which could mean something different than what the phrase means in English.. If you have such documentation, I would very much like to see it.
     
     
    BTW, why can’t Matthew 12:40 be accepted as a literal statement? What is there in Scripture that makes it absolutely necessary to find a way to make the 3 days AND 3 nights mean something other than at least parts of 3 light periods and least parts of 3 dark periods?
     
    #9 rstrats, Oct 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2012
  10. rstrats

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    billwald,

    re: "What kind of documentation do you deem acceptable?"
     
    Any writing from the first century that uses the phrase "x" days AND "x" nights where at least parts of the "x’ days AND at least parts of the "x" nights are absolutely not included.
     
  11. rstrats

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    Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in will know of some writing.
     
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    'days' and 'nights' are separated sunset. Before sunset is day's ending; after sunset is day's beginning.

    The Greek NT uses the word and concept of '[heh] opsia', "EVENING" for day's beginning.

    Now EVERY of the "three days" that each consisted of "night" and "day", is definitively indicated and demarcated in the Gospels "ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" ---the passover-Scriptures.

    First, for an extra source as to the significance of the "evening" for having been the beginning of days, the following:

    ‘Opse’, ‘laat’ in Hermas

    Hermas Similitudes 9,11,1-2,6,7

    The maidens said to me
    Legousi moi hai parthenoi

    Today the shepherd is not coming here
    Sehmeron ho poimehn hohde ouk erchetai

    What then, said I, shall I do?
    Ti oun phehmi poiehsoh eghoo?

    Until late [Kirsopp Lake “the evening”] wait for him
    Mexris opse perimeinon auton

    and if he come he will speak to you
    kai ean elthehi lalehsei meta sou

    and if he come not you shall remain here with us until he come
    ean de meh elthehi meneis meth’ hehmohn hohde heohs erchetai

    I said to them, I will wait for him till late [KL “evening”]
    Legoh autais, Ekdeksomai auton heohs opse

    but if he come not I will go away home
    ean de meh elthehi apeleusomai eis ton oikon

    and in the morning return.
    kai prohï epanehksoh

    [Playing until …]

    when evening came I wished to go home
    opsias de genomenehs ehthelon eis ton oikon hupagein

    but they did not let me [KL “go”] but kept me
    hai de ouk aphehkan alla kateschon me

    and I stayed with them the night
    kai emeina met’ autohn tehn nukta

    [Prayed and slept …]

    and I stayed there until the morrow
    kai emeina ekei mechri tehs aurion
     
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    I said before sunset is day's ending. Kirsopp Lake above translated 'opse' before sunset, in archaic English; the meaning clearly being 'afternoon until sunset' or, plainly, "LATE", 'opse' BEFORE sunset.

    After sunset "it had become EVENING already" and 'opsia' is the word for "evening". Cf. Mark 15:42 et al ---14 instances, refer paragraph 5.1.3. page 24 further, http://www.biblestudents.co.za/books/Book 1, 2 Burial B.pdf
     
  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    It is GREAT you had the honesty and courage to change your views! God bless you for it!

    Will you be prepared to change them again and further?

    Because your change to a Thursday Crucifixion is or was most noble; but that is not where the Holy Spirit through the testimony of the Scriptures will end with you, if my own experience meant anything, for also with me, the BIG CHANGE started with the Fifth Day of the week Suffering and Death of Christ; but it was only the first development.
     
  15. rstrats

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    Gerhard Ebersoehn,

    re: your post #12.


    I'm curious why you quoted the comment that I made in post #10 when your comments in your post # 12 had nothing to do with it?
     
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    You asked for a 'document' from the second century. Hermas is one.

    But I have been watching you for years. You're a difficult customer to please ... so I write to keep myself happy.
     
  17. rstrats

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    To Gerhard Ebersoehn,

    re: "You asked for a 'document' from the second century. Hermas is one."


    Firstly, I didn't ask for documentation from the second century. I asked for documentation from the first century or before.

    Secondly, your're "Hermas" quote didn't provide an example of a phrase being used which specified a certain number of days and a certain number of nights where at least parts of the certain number of days AND at least parts of the certain number of nights were absolutely not included.
     
  18. rstrats

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    Correction: Change "you're" in the 4th line of post #17 to "your".
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Alright then ... from the FIRST century ... or before ... document(s) wherein days and nights are found. --- By the way, I don't understand "_not_ included".

    I take you mean Matthew 12:40 and Jonas 2, the words, "three days and three nights.

    Well, here they are from just about every angle in all four Gospels,


    Abib 14, Wednesday night and Thursday day = Fifth Day ....

    1A) HERE BEGINS the NIGHT and the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    wherein Jesus ENTERED IN in “the Kingdom of my Father” (Jesus’ Jonah’s descent to hell) :–
    Mk14:12/17; Mt26:17/20; Lk22:7/14; Jn13:1.

    1B) HERE BEGINS the MORNING of the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    in which Jesus was delivered and crucified :–
    Mk15:1/Mt27:1/Lk23:1/Jn19:14

    1C) HERE is the LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    when Jesus DIED and was deserted by all :–
    Mk15:37–41; Mk27:50–56; Lk23:44–49; Jn19:28–30


    . . . . . .
    Abib 15, Thursday night and Friday day = Sixth Day ....

    2A) HERE BEGINS the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    the day whereon Joseph WOULD BURY the body of Jesus :–
    Mk15:42/Mt27:57, Lk23:50–51, Jn19:31/38.

    2B) HERE is the NIGHT of the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    wherein Joseph begged the body, and according to the law of the Jews – the passover’s law – undertook and prepared to bury Jesus:–
    Mk15:43–46a; Mt27:58–59; Lk23:52–53a; Jn19:31b–40

    2C) HERE is the LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    when Joseph and Nicodemus laid the body and closed the tomb; and men and women left for home :–
    Mk15:46b–47; Mk27:60–61; Lk23:53b–56a; JN19:41–42


    . . . . . . .
    Abib 16, Friday night and Saturday day = Seventh Day Sabbath....

    3A) HERE BEGINS the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    THAT JESUS WOULD RISE FROM THE DEAD ON :–
    Lk23:56b

    3B) HERE is the MORNING of the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    Pilate ordered a guard “for the third day” :–
    Mt27:62–66

    3C) HERE is “IN the Sabbath’s Fullness MID–AFTERNOON” of the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD :–
    Mt28:1–4.

    __________________________________________________ ___

    Abib 17, Saturday night and Sunday day = First Day ....

    4A) HERE begins the day AFTER the “three days” (fourth day of the passover season) :–
    that Jesus WOULD APPEAR on :–
    Mk16:1, “When the Sabbath was past ..... they BOUGHT ....”

    4B) HERE is the EVENING of this day,
    Jn20:1–10 Mary sees the DOOR STONE was away from the tomb (discovers tomb has been OPENED);

    4C) HERE is the NIGHT of this day,
    Lk24:1–10 “DEEP(EST) DARKNESS” ––– “women with their spices” and ointments go to salve the body; “they found Him NOT” (discover tomb is EMPTY);
    Mk16:2–8 “very early (before) SUN’S RISING” ––– women’s return–visit to ascertain; “they fled terrified and told NO ONE”.

    4D) Here is sunrise (‘Sunday’ morning),
    Jn20:11f, Mk16:9 “Mary had had stood behind” .... saw the gardener (sunrise); “Risen, early (sunrise) on the First Day, Jesus first APPEARED to Mary ....”
    Mt28:5–10 “The angel explained to the (other) women (Mt28:1–4) .... As they went to tell .... Jesus met them” (after sunrise).
    Mt28:11–15 Guard to high priests.
    USE BIBLES OF BEFORE THE TWENTIETH CENTURY – they are not as wangled as the later ones. And compare those ancient translations with the modern ones to see the truth of the older ones!
     
  20. rstrats

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    Gerhard Ebersoehn,

    re: "By the way, I don't understand '_not_ included'".



    By "not included" I mean "doesn't contain".


    Perhaps someone new looking in will have some documentation.
     
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