Three Hard Questions (for free-will believers)

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ~JM~, Mar 11, 2007.

  1. ~JM~

    ~JM~
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    Well, what do you think?

    :type:
     
  2. canadyjd

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    I am not a "free-will believer" but I think I could answer your questions as a "free-will believer".:smilewinkgrin:

    First, it is not "if God loves all men". John 3:16 tells us that God does indeed love all men. Why is it so hard for you to understand that when the bible says "God is Love" and "God so loved the whole world" that His love would include the "whole world"?

    Why do you want to make it sound like God really doesn't love the whole world, but just some people in the world. You make it sound like He really doesn't love the rest of the world even though His word tells us that He does?

    What does God's love have to do with salvation? Good Grief! "God gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth shall in Him have eternal life". That is what God's love has to do with salvation. Christ, while we were yet sinners, loved us so much that He died for our sins. Not only our sins, but for the sins of the whole world.

    First of all, it is not "if God wills for all men to be saved". I Tim. 2:4 says (God) "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

    Why do you keep denying the very plain words of scripture? How do you answer I Tim.2:4, yourself? Do the words of the text mean anything to you? God desires all men to be saved. That is what it says. The Greek word for "desires" is "thelei" which is the present, active, indictive verb form (3rd person singular) of "thelo" which means "will". It is God's will for all men to be saved. It could not be more clear.

    What does God's will have to do with salvation? Good Grief!! Christians are suppose to submit their own wills to the will of God. God's will is for all men to be saved, and all Christians should have the same will for all mankind that God has. We, as Christians, should desire for all men to be saved, and do everything we can to be certain the gospel is shared with every man on the planet.

    That gives us urgency in our missions, and relentlessness in our pursuit of the cause of Christ in the world.

    That is what "God's will" has to do with salvation.

    First of all, it is not "if Christ shed His precious blood for all men..." I John 2:2 "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

    and

    John 1:29 "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."

    How did Christ make propitiation? How did He take away the sin of the world? By shedding His blood. Please notice in both cases the "world" is the ones who benefit, not just a few.

    What does Christ's work on the cross have to do with anyone's salvation? Good grief!! Everything! Christ appeased the wrath of God the Father. He paid the penalty due because of sins, so that "whosoever believeth" may have life with God in Heaven.

    How do you reconcile those passages of scripture? Do you ignore them?

    Wow, that was kind of fun. I could like being a "free-will believer". Well, not really.:smilewinkgrin:

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #2 canadyjd, Mar 11, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2007
  3. npetreley

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    I'm not a free willer, but this one is easy for free willers.

    1. God's love is only applied to those who accept it of their own free will.

    2. God's will is accepted or rejected by man because God doesn't force salvation on anyone.

    3. Christ's atonement is sufficient for all, but only applied to those who accept it of their own free will.
     
  4. donnA

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    I've always wondered, what would have happened if no one chose to be saved? Wouldn't Jesus sacrifice be for nothing?
     
  5. bapmom

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    I am a "free-willer, non-arminian" (I think.....lol)


    SO

    1) God's love OFFERS salvation to all mankind

    2) God's will is concerned with the salvation of all mankind

    and

    3) Because of 1) and 2) Jesus' blood is available to all who believe, and applied to all who DO believe

    donnA, Id venture to say that yes, I guess it would have been for nothing........but by the time Jesus came there was at least several thousand years' worth of mankind who had lived and believed God's promise of a coming Messiah. So even if no one after Jesus lived had ever accepted Christ, there were still a ton of OT saints that needed that Perfect Sacrifice to come for their sake.
     
  6. donnA

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    In that case, God might not want any to perish, but all would have.
     
  7. bapmom

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    yes, but we can speculate about all sorts of things that did not happen. Where does it get us but confused?
     
  8. npetreley

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    In other words, God is not willing that any should perish, but since they all do, God's will doesn't amount to much. Not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will, but every human perishes apart from His will. The logical conlusion is that God is a bird lover but not a man lover.
     
  9. skypair

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    JM -- gotta love the naivete of these questions! :D

    Love is what brings believers to salvation and what will judge those who disbelieve. Everyone is loved -- many just don't respond.

    It proves that God does NOT force man's will in any way! Man chooses -- God is still sovereign over the consequences!

    Christ's blood paid for EVERYONE'S sin. If you are damned, (bottom line) it's because you didn't believe! He's going to resurrect you anyway to appear before Him at the GWT to answer for the rest of your life (your "works").

    skypair
     
  10. donnA

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    There will be people in hell who Christ's blood paid for their sins? Looks like christ's blood didn't have any effect for them then.
     
  11. StraightAndNarrow

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    Why don't you post your beliefs instead of guessing at the beliefs of others?
     
  12. npetreley

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    This question was for free willers. I was once a free willer, so I think my guesses were pretty good. Was I wrong?
     
  13. bapmom

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    no npet, God simply chooses not to force His will upon His. He chooses to give us free will....This is His choice, and being the Sovereign God that He is He can choose to force His will or not force His will when, where, and how He chooses.

    But then, I don't know why Im even getting into this discussion as its been discussed ad nauseum and the discussion never gets anywhere other than devolution into name-calling, mocking, and tongue-in-cheek attempts at answering "for" the other side.

    Ya'all remember why they chose to close the C vs A forum? It was because everybody was getting so worked up and there was nothing edifying in it. Isn't there any other part of theology ya'all are interested in? Its such a hassle to even look in this area anymore......
     
  14. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    Mt 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
    Along the same logic used in the op I ask this question. Does faith have healing power or is God limited by faith or the lack of?
     
  15. bapmom

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    of course saying God chooses not to do something is not the same as saying He Himself is limited.
     
  16. johnp.

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    Hello Bapmom.

    It's a contradiction. By giving free will to us He reduces His own free will. If He gives sovereignty away then He is no longer Sovereign in that which He gave away.

    This is the central core of the gospel. Free will or saved by grace. It doesn't come more important than faith or works. :) Tell a man he can decide and in that decision he may not be saved by grace but he thinks by his decision which is a work. JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

    john.
     
  17. skypair

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    Unless they weren't separated from God by sin but by unbelief, right?

    skypair
     
  18. johnp.

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    Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    If Christ paid Christ paid and there is nothing stopping those He paid for. The deal was not with us but between God and God. God demanded a payment and Jesus paid it. The debt is no longer owing and freedom into the Kingdom of God for those for whom He paid it is unavoidable.
    The Son paid my debt and His Father accepted it. Even God couldn't stop me now let alone my will. :)

    Look, the free willers are right when they say they have another way into Heaven. DT 28:9 The LORD will establish you as his holy people, as he promised you on oath, if you keep the commands of the LORD your God and walk in his ways. :) Be perfect.

    I was also a free willer once as well. Ok, it was only two weeks but I can remember saying over and over again, "I done it. After all these years I've finally done it." Boasting I was. :) Even with my experiences I still thought I'd done it. Three times He came to me but I did it.

    john.
     
  19. webdog

    webdog
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    "Nobody's perfect"

    I'm a "nobody"

    I must be perfect :D
     
  20. dwmoeller1

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    In all cases the answer is the same. God's will, love and blood only make salvation possible, not actual. The ultimate resolution of the matter depends on man's choice.
     

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