Timely Salvation

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by pinoybaptist, Sep 13, 2004.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    For the elect children of God, eternal salvation is absolutely unconditional and premised entirely on God's mercy, but while on earth his obedience or disobedience to God's instructions after being given gospel instruction can be a blessing or a curse to him.

    The Bible says Christ died while we were yet without strength (Romans 5:6), while we were yet sinners (Romans 5:8), and that the eternal salvation of God's children was authored and finished by Christ (Heb. 12:2), and that His atonement was sufficient to cover all sins (including the sin of unbelief).

    For eternal salvation it was all a work of God.

    But if eternal salvation is all there is to it, and if eternal salvation requires no action from man, and is all of God, then what for were the Apostles sent to preach to all nations and to teach ?

    Because God knows that the cause of all misery on this fallen earth is sin, and sin is the transgression of his law, and "his people perish for lack of knowledge".

    That is what gospel instruction is for. To give knowledge of the narrow way and teach us how to walk circumspectly.

    The Scriptures were written for the benefit of the children of God, not for unregenerate mankind, since God has only one end for unregenerate mankind, and that is their eternal punishment (Psalm 37).

    The Bible clearly teaches in many places that there is such a thing as being saved in time from the consequences of disobedience and wilful unbelief, and that is by abiding in Christ, by focusing on Christ, and by keeping His word in our hearts.

    Acts 2:40-41, for example, states that, while those regenerate believers have already received their eternal salvation in Christ, they still had to do something while on earth, and that is "save themselves from this untoward generation".

    1 Timothy 2:15 will be absurd if we say that the woman will be eternally saved thru childbearing. So we cannot but understand that this is salvation in time being spoken of.

    1 Timothy 4:16 also says "
    Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. "

    Is Paul saying Timothy can eternally save himself and those that hear him ? I doubt it.

    Timely salvation is that concept of practical holiness in which one, strives to obey the precepts of Christ, and His commands, not because he pants and craves for the blessings and protection that obedience affords him, but because he loves Christ.

    Timely salvation has conditions attached to it.

    Some examples:

    </font>
    • John 12:46
      I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.</font>
    • Joh 15:4 -
      Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.</font>
    • John 15:5-
      I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.</font>
    • Joh 15:6 -
      If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.</font>
    • Joh 15:7 -
      If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.</font>
    IFB Reformer has called this concept of gospel obedience, heresy. I suppose he means that God elected his people in order to make them believers, and after they can live any which way they want and be assured of all of God's protection ?

    That God will look on them favorably no matter if they live in sin wilfully and bless them and hear their prayers because they are His children ?

    That sin, wilfull disobedience, unbelief in all its forms and directions, no longer holds any consequence that the child of God should avoid in this plane called time ?

    Is IFB Reformer advocating antinomianism ?

    I am sure he is not, but, he sure sounds like he is by calling Primitive Baptists heretics because they call Practical Holiness by another name ?
     
  2. pinoybaptist

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    Incidentally, the majority of those among Primitive Baptists who do not preach Timely Salvation are also Absolute Predestinarians, from what I've read so far.

    Absolute Predestinarians are those (and they may be found among Calvinists also, though but few) who believe that God predestinated everything, even the hot air you tend to blow out after a particularly bad type of food.

    The funny thing is that most of them will also deny the logical conclusion of their belief, that God is the author of sin, but, willingly and happily embrace the other end, that if God predestinated your sin, then he also predestinated obedience.

    Interestingly, according to IFB Reformer's definition of election, God elected people in order to make of them believers.

    Uhhmmm....make of them believers, predestinate them to obedience... sounds identical to me, no wonder he rejects the concept of a timely salvation.
     
  3. Frogman

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    Brother pinyobaptist,
    Does this mean (CTS) the regenerated elect (in that condition) possesses a freed will; I understand that we find our strength (even to effect our obedience) in the grace that is in Christ.

    This is a question that prevents me from fully understanding CTS. What would be the general PB answer to this?

    May God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  4. pinoybaptist

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    Brother Dallas:

    In all good faith I am not able to articulate an answer to your question without seeming to endorse that regenerate man has a freed will.

    Personally, I tend to go that way, but, I must be honest, I feel I may be wrong and I do not want to misrepresent the PB's.

    So I put the question to another Elder I highly respect, though he belongs to those who oppose the current work in the Philippines.

    I will post his reply as soon as I have it.
     
  5. Barnabas H.

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  6. pinoybaptist

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    Thank you for the reminder, Barnabas.

    You are right, of course, it is just that all those posts were one web page long.

    But, I will shorten my posts and just try to keep the replies as well to the salient points.
     
  7. Frogman

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    Dear Brother Pinyobaptist,
    Thank you. In my correspondence with others, this is the idea that I have thought I understood to be believed. But I wasn't sure.

    It just seems to be the logical end. For sake of your understanding my thinking I will outline below:

    </font>
    • 1. Immediate Spiritual Regeneration</font>
    • 2. Gospel conversion, depended upon hearing a gospel preacher; but still is in varying degrees, depending upon the individual</font>
    My thinking may be wrong. But this seems to be the logical end as I understand it. Gospel conversion is dependent upon the regenerated elect hearing the Gospel, but even then the degree to which the truth is believed would depend on various factors, not least would be the individual's acceptance of whatever is beleived to be Gospel truth.

    So that, some hear but would still reject the belief of PB's stating the elect are immediately regenerated, while others hear and receive that truth.

    Hope that helps you to understand the reason I asked the question.

    May God Bless
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    Dear Brother Dallas:

    For what it's worth, I am posting a reply by the brother to whom I forwarded your first question

    {quote]
    Dear Brother Tim,

    I am affraid - for this poor ignorant sinner - you cut too much. :)
    I don't understand the question about a "freed will". As far as
    I know Adam was the last man to have "free will" and he lost
    it for all of us. As for the elect of God they are predestinated
    according to the WILL of God (Eph. 1:5) - "who worketh all
    things after the counsel of his own WILL (Eph. 1:11). By his
    grace we are able to "work out your own salvation in fear and
    trembling - For it is God which worketh in you both to will and
    to do of his good pleasure". (Phil 2:12-13).

    By no means are the children of God ROBOTS -- I do not believe
    in the "predestination of all things, both good and evil deeds
    and events of men" -- that is FATALISM. Jesus said, "IF ye love
    me keep my commandments". Love is the motivating force that
    causes God's elect people to try and "walk as he walked". It is
    the Law of God written in their heart, that causes one to (try as
    much as one can in this flesh) "Love God with all our heart, soul,
    mind and strength". God does not FORCE man to love him, but
    we love him because he first loved us, and therefore we love the
    brethren, and we desire to be "like him".

    I believe God is Omnipotent in all things at all times in all places.
    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
    it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we
    are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which
    God hath before ordained that we should walk in them".

    My friend John Gill properly explains Eph. 2:10

    Ver. 10. For we are his workmanship, &c.] Not as men only, but as
    Christians; not as creatures merely, but as new creatures; the work
    of grace upon the soul seems chiefly designed, which like a poem,
    as the word may be rendered, is a very curious work; the king’s
    daughter is all glorious within, for this is an internal work, and is
    a good and excellent one; it is not indeed perfected at once, but
    is gradually carried on, till the finishing stroke is given to it by that
    hand which begun it; the author of it is God, it is not man’s work;
    nor is it the work of ministers, no, nor of angels, but it is God’s work: sometimes it is ascribed to the Spirit, who regenerates and sanctifies;
    and sometimes to the Son of God, who quickens whom he will; and sometimes to the Father, who reveals his Son, and draws men to him,
    and who seems to be meant here: the subjects of this divine operation,
    are the persons described in #Eph 2:1-3 and include both Jews and
    Gentiles; and express the distinguishing grace of God, that they and
    not others, and who were by nature children of wrath as others,
    should be his workmanship: and this is mentioned to show, that
    salvation can not be by any works of men, since all their works are
    either wrought for them, or in them, by God; salvation is a work
    wrought for them without them; and sanctification is a work wrought
    in them by God, of his good pleasure; and all their good works are
    fruits of his grace, as follows:

    created in Christ Jesus unto good works; the work of grace is a
    creation, or a creature, a new creature; not a new vamp of old
    Adam’s principles, but; an infusion of new ones, and is a work of
    almighty power; and such who have it wrought in them, are said
    to be created in Christ; because as soon as a man becomes a new
    creature, he is openly and visibly in Christ; and by these new
    principles of grace which are created in him, he is fit and ready,
    and in a capacity to perform good works; the new man formed in
    him, is formed for righteousness and true holiness; the internal
    principle of grace both excites unto, and qualifies for, the
    performance of righteous and holy actions:

    which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them, or
    has "before prepared"; for the preparation of good works to be
    performed by saints, and the preparation of them for the
    performance of them; are both from the Lord; God has appointed
    good works to be done by his people and in his word he has
    declared what they are he would have done; and it is his will not
    only that they should do them, but continue to do them; not only
    that they should do a single act or more, but walk in them; their
    conversation and course of life should be one continued series
    of good works; but the intention is not that they should be saved
    by them, but that they should walk in them; and this being the
    pre-ordination of God, as it shows that predestination is not
    according to good works, since good works are the fruits and
    effects of it, so likewise that it is no licentious doctrine; seeing
    it provides for the performance of good works, as well as secures
    grace and glory.

    [/quote]

    Searching the Scriptures and meditating on what I've read so far, I think you are right in stating that the only place we can draw strength from is Christ. Our will is not freed in the sense that we now have the capacity to resist evil on our own.
     
  9. Frogman

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    Dear Brother Pinyobaptist,

    This post fully answered my question. I was previously making an assumption about what the appearance of belief was among PBs that Gospel obedience logically meant the regenerated elect possessed a freed will. As the elder's reply shows I was wrong.

    I am glad for this.

    May God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  10. Terry_Herrington

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    This entire thread is based upon the "false doctrine" of Calvinism. It is one of the worse heresies that has ever invaded the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ!
     
  11. Daniel David

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    Terry, that isn't true exactly. This belief that primitive baptists hold to is hypercalvinism of the most extreme degree. They have actually come full circle and are actually partially arminian.

    A true calvinist believes that the elect will believe. PBs don't believe that a person must believe to be justified.

    They are ... and outside of God's redeemed people. They are promoting a false doctrine. They deny an essential tenet of Christianity: faith alone in Christ alone.

    [ September 13, 2004, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: Squire Robertsson ]
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    Terry Harrington said:

    [quote
    This entire thread is based upon the "false doctrine" of Calvinism. It is one of the worse heresies that has ever invaded the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ!
    [/quote]

    So, why don't you be an administrator of the Baptist Board and kick out everyone who does not believe the way you do. I believe I have read you elsewhere on this forum defending the right of other religions.

    Hypocrite !

    Daniel David said:

    Nothing is sadder than to see someone slapping rotten eggs all over himself like you, DD.

    Your ignorance of what the facts are only highlights itself in your finger pointing.

    1. When Christ went up on that cross to save His people, they were yet sinners ;

    2. When Christ went up on that cross to save His people they were yet without strength ;

    3. When Christ went up on that cross to save His people they were spiritually dead ;

    4. There is nothing in the Old Testament where Jehovah God made prior belief in the redemptive work of the Messiah a precondition to their salvation;

    5. Salvation and justification were done on the cross as part of a salvation freely offered without pre-conditions.

    It is you and your camp that promotes a false doctrine where salvation is a cooperative venture between the Sovereign Holy God and a fallen human race. You and your kind are the leaven that leaveneth the whole lump.

    Like those you call 'true' Calvinists, PB's believe the elect will believe, but their believing is the evidence of their salvation, not the cause of it.

    The cause of their salvation is the LORD
    and HIM only. It was His will that they be saved, it was His plan that they be saved, and it was His work that saved them.

    All of God. None of men.

    You, on the other hand, make the cross of Christ of none effect when you make prior belief a necessary component of man's salvation.

    You rob God of His glory.
     
  13. Daniel David

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    No, God has ordained the means and ends of salvation. You only see the end.

    1. The cross was primarily to satisfy the Father.
    2. The cross also guarantees that the elect will believe. Why you can't grasp this I will never know.
    3. Romans 10 and 1 Cor. 1 make crystal clear that faith is necessary for biblical soteriology.
    4. The disciples asked Christ what they must do. Christ responded by saying they must believe.
    5. Believing (faith) is contrasted with works throughout Scripture. Therefore, faith is not a work.

    Sorry, but by denying that people must repent of their wickedness and embrace the Savior, you have a bizarre adaptation of unitarianism.

    God has magnified Christ so high that only those whose hearts bow before him will be saved. Stop trampling the blood.
     
  14. pinoybaptist

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    DD said:
    On the contrary we affirm it. It is Christ's work that saved His people, it is Christ's blood that washed His people of their sins, it is Christ's resurrection that is their assurance that they have eternal life, it is Christ's faith that completes their faith, it is Christ's obedience that covers their disobedience, it is Christ that justified His people.

    Everything is of Christ. It is Christ's belief that God honored, and that belief is imputed to every child of God.

    We trust Him, not our feeble flesh, for like Paul we accept that in us dwelleth no good thing, and apart from Christ we are nothing.

    You, on the other hand, espouse independence from Christ by insisting that weak, dead sinners who are incapable of faith and belief that pleases the Holy God be saved by their faith, and not Christ's.

    You dishonor Christ, yet I suppose you sing 'nothing in my hand I bring, simply to thy cross I cling'.
     
  15. Daniel David

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    How bizarre!

    Christ did not exercise faith to save us. Are you kidding me? Where does this nonsense come from?

    How was Abraham justified? By faith.
    How was David justified? By faith.
    How am I justified? By faith.

    Note Romans 4, it clearly states that one must believe in the God who will justify the ungodly to be justified. If you don't believe that, you are not saved.
     
  16. pinoybaptist

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    Bizarre to you perhaps, because you have scales in your eyes like the religionist Saul that need to be removed.

    Your faith is not in Christ. Think of it. Your faith lies in your ability to believe. You think you are saved because you did the believing, not because Christ went up on that cross while you were dead in sins and trespasses with a belief that goes only as far as your sputum.

    Abraham's faith was proof of life in him.
    David's faith was proof of life in him.
    Your faith ? I don't know whose spirit you have, but God knows.

    Christ has no faith ? Excuse me, you blaspheme. It took extreme faith for the Son of God to believe God's promises to Him, and to learn obedience through the things He suffered. Does that surprise you ? That Jesus had to learn to obey ?

    Do your homework. I won't do it for you.

    Picture a son who has always always always been rich and clean, very clean, unspotted, and in one accord with His Father in everything. He knows everything. He has heard of sin and He abhors it like His Father but He had never, never, ever, felt the touch of it, even the minutest stain of sin on Himself.

    And His Father tells Him to go and live among those dirty, rotting, stinking, dungsmeared, evil race and save many among them that they may not all be consumed by my wrath, and he must do that by limiting Himself, by giving up His glory, and above all, by taking every putrefying, oozing, pus smelling sin upon His own clean body, and if He does that, His Name will be above all Names and His Father will glorify Him.

    That took faith ! A million Davids cannot equal that faith. A million Abrahams cannot equal that faith. And certainly not a million you or me.

    Now, be the Father. There's your Son, your only Son, and He is beginning to get an idea of how it is to be dirtied with sin. And you need Him to go all the way so you can bring home those dirty rotten sinners and spare them from your wrath. But you knew your son would be horrified with what He is about to go through, but you had faith in Him. You had faith He will not cry out and call upon the angels of glory.

    That took faith.

    So it God's faith, and Christ's faith, that justified the sinner, that is, made the sinner right with God, because he was crucified on that cross with Christ !

    Read about God's faith in your Bible.

    The redemption of sinners was a covenant God made with Himself before He even created anything. No man was there. It is a singular undertaking, and that is OF the LORD, when man was an unbelieving dead sinner.
     
  17. Terry_Herrington

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    I have not always been right with God concerning everything I have posted here. However, I have never believed the evil doctrine of Calvinism.

    Perhaps, but it has not been intentional.
     
  18. pinoybaptist

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    On the splash page of this website are the words:

    Now, I am no Calvinist, so I will let them speak for themselves. I am Baptist, and historically, Calvinists are as happy as the Roman Church to have Baptists 'burn in the stake'.

    My primary objection stems from making belief a pre-requisite for the work of Christ to be effective for a sinner, because I do not believe that is according to Scriptures.

    As arguments go, you and others like you have extended that to mean that I am saying you don't even have to believe in Christ at all at anytime and just remain what you are and you will be saved. That if you're a Muslim, remain a Muslim, or if you're a cannibal, keep on eating people, you'll still go to heaven.

    I did not say that.

    But then, distorting others' statements is typical of people who are confronted with hard spiritual food they are unable to chew.

    God saved His people entirely because of His mercy. Christ went up on that cross with no precondition that we believe in Him first or His blood means nothing to us.

    His blood redeemed those HE wanted to redeem because HE wanted to redeem them in obedience to His Father, not because they wanted to be saved.

    Now, after He redeemed His people, the Holy Spirit will effectually call each one, not the gospel preacher, not the gospel. The Holy Spirit will regenerate each one, without any human means.

    Each effectually called and regenerated but redeemed first child of God will exhibit some kind of conversion thru repentance.

    IF in his lifetime, a gospel preacher comes and IF in his lifetime he happens to join a gospel church, good for him, and praise the Lord. The Lord has plans for him.

    But if not , then your presence and your message will not cause Christ to let go of His redeemed.

    THAT is the glorious gospel, that salvation is OF the Lord, that to the redeemed sinner salvation is already his, not possible to be his only if he believes.

    Your gospel leavens the whole lump. It is man based, man glorifying, and Christ dishonoring.
     
  19. pinoybaptist

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    Brother Dallas:

    Here's an addendum from the brother to whom I referred your question on CTS:


    Another brother said that one may be convinced there may be two types of salvation being taught in the Bible: one eternal, the other timely.

    Or there may be One Salvation, with two aspects or facets, if you will: eternal and timely.

    The eternal is absolutely unconditional and all of God, it is set, decreed, and its beneficiaries, God's people, absolutely secure in the Rock of their salvation. Nothing was required of them, not previous belief, not previous faith, since these will be from God to them at regeneration.

    The timely, results in salvation from the many consequences of sin in time, could extend to the family (as in the case of the believing spouse saving the unbelieving spouse, or the Philippian jailor's household), and results in timely blessings for obedience (as in
    Deuteronomy 11:1-32). This obedience is brought about by the resulting trust, confidence, and love that comes with their regeneration and grows along with their conversion experiences, and gospel instruction.
     
  20. Daniel David

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    Pinoy, you just ignore text after text in favor of wrenching verses out of context. Deal with what I posted and stop side tracking.

    Christ did not have faith in anything. Do you really think Christ did not have complete understanding of what he was doing? What exactly was Christ unsure of that he needed faith?

    Sorry, but the Scriptures explicitly state in Romans 4 that one's faith in the God who justifies will be saved. Apart from that, you have no hope.

    Further, you reduce the cross of Christ to some meaningless event by saying that people can keep their idolatrous heart and still wind up in glory. How very cult of you.
     

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