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Timothy Was Not A Pastor, At Least In...

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by TCGreek, Apr 10, 2008.

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  1. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    I've often wondered if a pastor/elder must be elected from among the indigenous congregation to fit the Biblical definition. Apostles and evangelists would be men who come in from outside of the community. And while I don't see anything that indicates that Paul was ever a pastor/elder, Peter definitely identifies himself as an Elder. So it would be possible to be both an apostle and an elder.
     
    #21 J.D., Apr 10, 2008
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    2 Timothy 4:22 The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen. <<The second epistle unto Timotheus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Ephesians, was written from Rome, when Paul was brought before Nero the second time.>>

    "Bishop" is close enough.
     
    #22 DHK, Apr 10, 2008
  3. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    I believe the elders must be indigenous; I think we see this in Acts 14:23 and Titus 1:5.

    Yes, Peter was, but Paul never referred to himself as an elder in the functional sense. That's the difference between Paul and Peter.
     
    #23 TCGreek, Apr 10, 2008
  4. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    DHK, Are you asking me to accept 2 Tim 4:22? Isn't that a matter of textual criticism?

    But there's the problem with that reference: Timothy was not the first bishop, because Paul already addressed a group of bishops also called elders from Ephesus (Acts 20:17, 28) and Timothy was not one of them.
     
    #24 TCGreek, Apr 10, 2008
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
    Why do you say that Timothy could not have been among these elders?
     
    #25 DHK, Apr 10, 2008
  6. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    DHK, I give you the benefit of the doubt for overlooking Acts 20:4, which mentions those who were in Paul's party as he was traveling, and Timothy of Derbe was one of them (16:1).
     
    #26 TCGreek, Apr 10, 2008
  7. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    Which puts a pinch on most Baptist churches which almost never call a pastor from among its members. Or does "indigenous" limit the scope to a particular local congregation?
     
    #27 J.D., Apr 10, 2008
  8. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    JD, it seems to me that elders/pastors have that responsibility to care for the flock and so on (1 Pet 5:1-4), and I think it is good reason to expect these men to have been known by the local church.

    I certainly would not like an elder in the church who the members didn't know.
     
    #28 TCGreek, Apr 10, 2008
  9. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    No, bishops are distinct from deacons. Both are elders. When two offices are mentioned in scripture, it is "bishop(s) and deacons", but never "elders and deacons". Most often the church officers are collectively referred to as elders.
     
    #29 Jerome, Apr 10, 2008
  10. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Jerome, there's only one text with Bishops and Deacons together (Phil 1:1) and you have already established that Bishops are Elders.

    Then when we come to 1 Tim 3, Bishops then Deacons are addressed, but 5:17-25 speaks of Elders.

    So we know at Ephesus they had both Elders/Bishops and Deacons.
     
    #30 TCGreek, Apr 10, 2008
  11. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    Interesting thread. Now I would like to interject Titus into the picture. What would you call him? I seriously don't know but he had the authority to appoint elders in many churches. Does that make Titus an apostle? a bishop? Surely he must have been above the rank of elder if he had authority to appoint elders. Also, would all agree that Titus and Timothy held the same office, whatever that is?
     
    #31 Zenas, Apr 10, 2008
  12. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Some believe that anybody can, and should appoint elders as long as it is voted on by everybody :)
     
    #32 webdog, Apr 10, 2008
  13. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Are you assuming that because Titus had the authority to appoint elders that he had more authority than them? This is faulty reasoning.

    Titus had his realm of operation and so did the elders.

    Each was expected to function within their realm.
     
    #33 TCGreek, Apr 10, 2008
  14. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    Agreed, but that doesn't seem to be the model we see in Titus 1. Maybe the churches were voting on their elders and Titus was simply doing the ordaining, but it sure seems like Titus was going to each city and selecting the elders himself.
     
    #34 Zenas, Apr 10, 2008
  15. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I agree with your view. Appointing elders is an important job that should not be left to the vast majority to vote on.
     
    #35 webdog, Apr 10, 2008
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