Titanic theology

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by billwald, Jun 21, 2007.

  1. billwald

    billwald
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    From another thread:

    >Climate change ? I thought the church's job was to proclaim Christ, and him crucified.

    This is my major objection to Dispensational theology - the unintended consequences. Sin has to multiply before Jesus can return. The environment must degenerate before Jesus can return thus no point to making the world a better place for the grandchildren because we will get raptured in the next year or so and everyone else will go to Hell. No point to polishing brass on the Titanic. We must fill the lifeboats.

    Problem is I've been hearing this for 60 years and "believed" that we would get Raptured within 40 years of 1947. That year has come and gone and I got "Reformed" in 1988.
     
  2. SBCPreacher

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    I don't know that sin HAS TO multiply before Christ returns as some kind of requirement, but just look around. It is multiplying. And we're still looking for Christ to return.

    As far as only filling the lifeboats, I don't believe that's what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to serve Christ until He comes for us (either all at one time or one at a time). That's what I'm planning to do.
     
  3. J. Jump

    J. Jump
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    Well Scripture says that His "return" will be during a time akin to the time of Noah and Lot's day. So if it is going to be that bad when He actually returns it seems at least logically that it would be on the upswing when the "rapture" occurs.

    I guess as a dispensationalist I am unaware of this objection.

    Yeah it's unfortunate that mistakes are made with True doctrine, because it causes people to ultimately throw out the baby with the bath water as the old saying goes I think.

    But just because mistakes are made on the timing doesn't mean that it isn't a True doctrine.

    I think folks in the past have started off on the wrong tagent when trying to determine how much longer we have left on this spinning ball. The seem to start with Israel as a nation, but the key is the crucifixion of Christ and how Israel relates to that event.
     
  4. peterotto

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    There are so many things wrong with Dispensationalism, I wouldn't even know where to start with the errors.

    billward you are right in pointing out that dispensationlism has a pessimistic outlook on life. I hear from them all the time, "The world is getting worse and worse". They know this from reading new papers, and watching the news.(Not the Bible) Heaven forbid if they ever look at it from a historical point of view. If they did, they would find at times things look really bad and at other times things looked really good. Kind of like the climate change. Sometimes hot, othertimes cold.

    Now lets take a look at what J.Jump says. It sounds convincing until you disect it from a biblical point of view.

    I wonder if J.Jump realizes that during both of those times in the scriptures, the wicked was taken away and the righteous stayed. Not the other way around!



    You call dispensationalism "True" doctrine?
    Ha ha, I had to chuckle when I read that.

    Please tell me J.Jump what does "near" mean in Revelation 1:3?

    Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that reads, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things written in it; for the time [is] near.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    I still mow my lawn, take out the garbage and clean up around the house -- the fact that the end of the world is coming does not mean that Christians need to destroy the earth.
     
  6. J. Jump

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    Actually that theory doesn't hold water. Noah didn't stay in the same place. He was in a boat with his family. And neither was Lot. Lot and his family were removed. But even if your theory was correct what would it prove?

    Worse has been done, so I'm guess I'm glad I provided you with some comic relief.

    It means near. Wow that was pretty simple :).
     
  7. peterotto

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    Yes the theory does hold, you are just unwilling to see it.
    Fact: the wicked were destroyed. In dispensationalist theology the wicked are the ones to stay(they live), and the righteous will be removed.
    This rapture theory has it completely backwards.

    Since "near" means "near", then we agree Revelation 1 has already taken place. Therefore Christ did return. (just not they way you expect)

    Rev 1:7

    Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
     
  8. J. Jump

    J. Jump
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    Let me explain it again.

    Noah was REMOVED and so was Lot. They were removed from what was about to happen. Who's unwilling to see what?

    No we don't agree on that. Because you are assuming near has the same definition of time in human terms. That is where you make your mistake. We are dealing with God not with man. And so no we don't have to be in agreement and Scripture can still be true!
     
  9. peterotto

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    Think for a moment. The rapture theology says the wicked will remain. The Bibles says the wicked were removed.

    Redefining terms has become natural to dispensationalist.

    Ahhhh yes, dispensationalist has to redefine what "near" means. It doesn't fit with their theoloy so it must mean something different.
    Your same thinking leads people down the path of millions and millions of years for creation, because day doesn't mean day. I can see J.Jump say "Day was meant in God's terms not mans."

    What would be the point of Rev 1:3 "time is near" if near can mean anything? It is pointless to be in the Bible if you do that. You have rendered the Scriptures meaningless. Near means near, not "fill in your own time frame".
     
  10. FriendofSpurgeon

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    When dealing with the end times, many literalists are not not so literal. Soon doesn't mean soon, quickly doesn't mean quickly, etc. From the Book of Revelation alone, see below ---

    1. SHORTLY, QUICKLY:
    a. 1:1 - "...things which must shortly take place"
    b. 2:16 - "Repent, or else I will come to you quickly"
    c. 3:11 - "Behold, I come quickly!"
    d. 22:6 - "...things which must shortly take place."
    e. 22:7 - "Behold, I am coming quickly!"
    f. 22:12 - "Behold, I am coming quickly."
    g. 22:20 - "Surely I am coming quickly."

    2. NEAR AT HAND
    a. 1:3 - "The time is near."
    b. 22:10 - "The time is at hand."

    3. ABOUT TO, ON THE POINT OR VERGE OF
    a. 1:19 - "Write ... the things that are about to take place."
    b. 3:10 - "... the hour of trial ... is about to come upon the whole world."
     
  11. webdog

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    Look up what a similie is.
     
  12. J. Jump

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    Right back at you.

    Your argument is meaningless to the conversation. So what if is says the wicked will remain. The Bible says the times will be like Noah and Lot it doesn't say the same thing is going to happen as happened then. Think for a moment.

    You are trying to make something out of absolutely nothing.

    Again this has nothing to do with the conversation. Lot and Noah were both removed. The wicked remained until they were destroyed. Big deal. I know this is one less argument you have for preterism, but it's silly to make stuff up where it doesn't exist.

    Ahhhh yes, preterist have to make stuff up out of nothing. You know if you would simply understand the time issue for a Divine perspective instead of looking at it with your "human" eyes things might make a little more sense. I know again that would kill your man-made doctrine, but at least you could let Scripture speak for itself instead of you putting your spin on the matter.

    And I know you'll accuse me of the same thing, but everytime one of you bring this nonsense up it just shows your lack of understanding of the Biblical timeline.

    And I know that it gets your goat that people won't buy into your theology, but just because we choose to see God's definition instead of "yours" doesn't make us incorrect.

    And this goes both ways. Because God's timetable disrupts "your" theology you continue to hold on to man-made definitions.

    Well we've actually had this discussion in another thread or two. God never tells us how long it took Him to create the heavens and the earth, so I can't say either.

    However God gives us some guidelines as to how He sees time and folks like you conveniently ignore those because once again it blows a gaping whole into "your" theology.

    No one said near means "anything." God has His own definition of what near is and it would behoove us to find that understanding. And the point of Revelation 1:3 is exactly what God intended it to be. The time is near on HIS timetable not the timetable of man.

    Well that's probably unfortunately true for you, but hardly true for me.

    Again a baseless accusation. Never once have I said that near means fill in your own time frame. Near means learn what God's timetable is and believe that. That is what I have chosen to do.

    Here's my last comment to you because I'm not going to waste any more time. If you want to slumber that is on you. However I will choose to be awake and understand what is coming down the pike. But just know that the Bible has made it very clear He is coming to meet the church in the air and after that is judgment day, so you will stand to give an account for what you spread. I hope that day does not overtake you like a thief in the night, but it will as long as you continue to slumber.
     
  13. J. Jump

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    I guess you will just have to excuse God for not consulting with you before He laid out His plans and His timetable.

    Time will tell and when you get snatched out of your shoes don't be wondering what's going on :laugh:.
     
  14. Amy.G

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    Not only were Noah and Lot removed, but God's wrath fell on those who were left. It will be the same with the rapture. The righteous will be removed and God's wrath will fall on those who are left.
     
  15. J. Jump

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    Well I certainly didn't think it was that difficult to see, but one never knows these days :).

    More agreement between us we must be getting close now :laugh:.
     
  16. Amy.G

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    :eek: :laugh:
     
  17. BobRyan

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    That is exactly what we see in 1Thess 4 and Rev 19.
     
  18. J. Jump

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    Oh no - now Bob's agreeing with us. What's the world coming to :laugh: Look out :tonofbricks:
     
  19. BobRyan

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    In the NT the term "I come quickly" is meant to be taken literally and to set an attitude of urgent expectation. Read Phil 3 at the end you will find URGENT and anxious expectation EAGERLY awaiting.

    In 1Thess 4 we have urgent expectation SO INTENSE that the grief of some is that their loved ones have been unfortunate in that they have died BEFORE the urgent SOON coming and "what now - did they MISS out completely?"

    Paul argues "NO for WE shall not PRECEED them" in goinig to heaven - rather the HOPE of the saints in 1Thess 4 is the "dead in Christ RISE FIRST" and thus Paul concludes "SO COMFORT one another with these words". But that problem of grief was caused by the NEAR and SOON expectation of the appearing of Christ. Not "long 1000's of years delay".

    Also notice that in 2Thess 2 we ALSO see a problem caused by the NEAR and SOON coming expectation. Some were being told "it already happened and you missed it". Paul does NOT solve the problem in 2Thess 2 by saying "it is not really that soon - don't worry be happy".

    But IF that were the solution 1Thess4 and 2Thess 2 would have been the perfect place to say it!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

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    '

    Premill -- but post-trib so I guess we can call that "agreement" at least to a point.:applause:

    We take what we can get these days.:jesus:
     

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