tithes

Alright, let's REALLY have a worship experience! Let's plunder a town, kill all the people there, take all the spoils, then look up the local priest, and give him a tithe of everything. It's all "under grace," and it's all Abraham's example-- 2 valid guidelines for us to follow.... right? </font>[/QUOTE]This a classic post!

 

Herc,

I take it that you are a firm believer in the old adage, "You keep 'em humble, Lord, and we'll keep 'em poor."

Being the pastor of even a small church is a full time job. Yes, a JOB. It is not unusual for a pastor to put in over 90 hours a week. That doesn't leave much time for anything else, like, say, family, relaxation, study.

Any man who is willing to follow the Lord down the pathway of pastorhood should be supported by the church that calls him. Any church that will not do so is not a church at all. True, many pastors are bi-vocational because their church does not have the resources to support him. But even that can be due to the congregation not giving to the ministry of the church.

For example, if you have 30 working adult members, who are making an average of $20,000 a year, who are giving 10%, you would have a budget of $60,000 a year. A church that small should not have very much expense at all, and could at least pay a pastor $20,000 a year.

The church I am a member of runs about 120 on Sunday morning. I do not know if everyone gives, but we do OK. Our pastor was bi-vocational for many years until the church had grew enough to pay a salary that he could live on. He then retired from his secular job, and went full time as pastor. He now puts in almost twice as many hours as he did working out in the world.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Yes, some men go into ministry for money (I have no idea why). And some of these leap-frog from church to church, looking for more money. But these are a very small minority. Most men who are caled into a pastoral role are giving up much more than anyone realizes. But to give up having an income? Please tell me I did not understand.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

I believe the tithe is good, 10% is a guideline, 20% or 50% would be a better guideline.I tithe 10% of gross and if there is a special need in the church or a church member has a need then I give a contribution. We began tithing when we were in bad financial shape (my wife said, WHAT?) We were both amazed at how our finacial picture changed after we began tithing. Tithing is submmission to God finacially. Contibutions are going a little father toward submission to God, at least that is my opinion. The check for my tithe is the first check written, then the rest. Works for me.

 

IT IS WRITTEN:

1TI 5: 8 If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

MT 15:3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, `Honor your father and mother' and `Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, `Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6 he is not to `honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
MT 15:8 " `These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
MT 15:9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.' "

As far as the tithe and the Church, it is NOT written. It is an interpretational teaching. It is as Jesus said; "rules taught by men."

In our church community, we have a pastor who makes in excess of $60,000 a year, and in the same church, families who struggle to get by (small total incomes where both spouses are working). And these struggling families (along with the rest of the church) are regularly preached at to give their tithe to the church.

It comes down to this:
What is more important? (And yes, one is more important than the other.)
The Home, or the Church (assembled believers, assembled homes).
Many will say that the Church is the most important. But they have not thought through the consequences of this choice.
The Church is secondary to the Home. We live in a time when we face the unfortunate consequences of the choice many have made to make the Church primary, and the Home secondary.

When you put first things first, you get the first things, and other things, also.
When you put second things first, you don't get the second things, and you also lose the first things.

 

I've been in churches where the pastor made twice the average salary of the members (and for one particular pastor--that wasn't enough--so he embezelled more), and I've been in other churches where the congregation wouldn't pay the pastor enough to take care of his own family (and he was even bivocational).

I don't think the problem is tithing or not tithing--but rather selfishness or selflessness--both on the part of pastor and congregation.

Tim

 

I believe the tithe is good, 10% is a guideline, 20% or 50% would be a better guideline.I tithe 10% of gross...

If 20% or 50% is a "better guideline," why do you go for a worse guideline?

We began tithing when we were in bad financial shape (my wife said, WHAT?) We were both amazed at how our finacial picture changed after we began tithing.

Just what are you claiming here? Be specific. How did it change? Did you cut out any regular expenses? Get a new job or a promotion? An inheritance?...

The check for my tithe is the first check written, then the rest. Works for me.

OK. I just didn't know check numbers made that much difference.

 

Except for Genesis 14:20, the Biblical definition of the first (of three)"tithes" (not Webster's) is (1) only food from land and herds (2) only from the land of Israel (3) only for the Levite servants to the priests (4) 1/10th of the Levite's share to the ministering priests (5) under the Old Covenant (6) refused from Gentiles (7) refused from land outside Israel -- and (8) not from craftsmen or artisans, therefore Jesus did not qualify as a tithe-payer. Since we use the Bible definition for every other theological term, then we should also use the Bible definition for tithing (not Webster's). Therefore, we may give 10% per Webster's, but none of us can really biblically tithe today.

 

Dear Herc,
What has got you in such a snit? Most of the pastors I know prepare 3 messages a week,a Sunday school lesson,go on visitation on tuesdays and saturdays,then go on hospital visitation.In addition to this they meet with the deacons or elders,the youth ministers,ect....Then many of them hold down full or part time jobs to make ends meet. Oh by the way most of these gentlemen give 30% back to the church, so if they are bi-vocational they are giving 30% of what the church pays them then they are also giving 30% of what they make from thier vocational jobs to the church too.Most Pastors who are in it for the money do'nt last long.

 

It is not about the pastor or the church. It is about trusting God to provide. When I give it is to God (through the church) What He uses it for is not my concern. I have seen a few pastors who were (in my opinion)in that position as a JOB and not submissive to God's calling. I've seen churches that put more money in the physical church than in spreading the gospel. But I also believe that those who do not use "God's" money in a responsible matter will answer for it one day. For me and my house we will tithe, that is what I believe God wants me to do and I am comfortable with that. I look at it as a personal thing, if you do not feel led to do so, then don't. I believe a tithe by definition is 10% if you are into dotting the i's and crossing the t's.

 

Sam
The biblical inheritance laws pushed most of the large landowners off the land in a few generations. Then most either worked as day laborers or took up trades in the cities. None of the many biblical texts which describe the tithe include money or non-food items. Therfore, common sense says that carpenters (Jesus), masons, tentmakers (Paul) did not tithe and could not tithe because their occupation did not provide food to tithe. LIke the vast majority of Israelites, they gave freewill offerings. I am not the one playing with biblical words. I am the one using the biblical definition of tithe and not Webster's. Give your 10%, but please do not call it a tithe unless you are an Israelite living in Israel under the old covenant to support a limited priesthood.

 

Russ
You obviously are a learned man on the Bible so I would not disagree with you. I suppose I should rephrase my previous post and say I give a freewill offering instead of a tithe. The apostles instructed us to bring our offerings into the storehouse(church) and the only guide lines are in the OT concerning the tithe so by example it would seem to me that there is where we should start. But I will have to confess that to me a freewill offering is what you give when someone in the church or community has a need and you contribute to that need. But then again a tithe is a freewill offering also because you have a choice.
(Altoona getting a little low?)

 

And if the Storehouse of the tithe of the land was too far for you, you were allowed to cash it in and throw a party (including the purchase of strong-drink).

Deuteronomy 14
23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household.

BTW it appears that brother herc is a Primitive Baptist.

HankD

 

Sam
This may surprise you, but the church is never called a storehouse. Many commentaries translate (lay by yourself in store) from 1 Cor 16:2 to mean "put aside at home." The early church did not even have their own places to "store" food for famine victims. They met in catacombs, other hiding places, or homes until at least the middle of the third century. Christianity was an "outlaw" religion since AD 80 and church leaders were required to prove they had legal employment, or they would have been imprisoned. According to Numbers 18, 2nd Chronicles 31:15-19, and Nehemiah 10:35-39, tithes were brought (not to the temple) but to the Levicical cities. Malachi 3:10 is one of the most misued texts in the Bible.

[ February 21, 2004, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: Russ Kelly ]

 

Russ
You said "tithes were brought (not to the temple) but to the Levicical cities. Malachi 3:10 is one of the most misued texts in the Bible."

Would it not be resonable that the Levies being priest of the Temple were responsible for the Temple and would collect tithes for the Temple regardless where they were ? The widow in Luke 21:1-4 gave into the "treasury" which was in the Temple. I do not understand why you would state that Mal. 3:10 is misrepresented regarding tithes and offering. It is an OT example for NT giving?

1 Cor. 16:2 that you quoted is a good example to me for titheing. "Upon the first day of the week (Sunday) let every one of you (all members) lay by him in store, (write a check, set aside a certain amount) as God hath prospered him,...." Notice that this also implies regular giving and not a one time gift.
2 Cor 9:7 Every man according as he puposeth in his heart ( a tithe of you total income or a $20 bill you decide) so let him give, not grudgingly, or of necessity for God loveth a cheerful giver."
Proverbs 3:9 is good also, "Honor the Lord with thy substance, and with the first fruits of all thine increase."

I am not saying that we should live by the OT Law but there is where we find examples to decide for ourselves.1 Ti 3:16-17 "All scripture is given by inspiration
of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for
reproof, for correction, for instruction in
righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect,
throughly furnished unto all good works."