Tithing for All

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by SpiritualMadMan, Apr 20, 2006.

  1. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
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    OK, I admit it. This is a rip-off of the tithing thread for Baptists Only... (Tithing is Rare)...

    Not being a Baptist by denominational affiliation the rules will not allow me to join the thread...

    And, I have oh so much to share...

    Dr. Bob posted a short blurb over there for me you may want to read for background...

    I have some very mixed feelings about the Doctrine of tithing as now taught and practiced in most denominations...

    From my background Tithing is taught as an obligatory requirement, nearly under pain of the loss of ones salavation, from the gross paycheck, and only to the local church...

    There is a lot of legalism and condemnation in much of the teaching on tithing in many churches...

    In fact, I feel rather strongly that there was actually more Grace Extended under the law concerning the Tithe than we see in most churches who cry "Grace not Law".

    While I can make a case totally blowing tithing out of the water... I do not think that giving more excuses for not being liberal with God, who has already been so liberal to us with His Son Jesus... Is proper..

    But, I am strongly incline to believe that *if* a full message on Personal Finances, Stewardship, yes, Tithing were taught with Grace Extended...

    Giving would increase not decrease...

    That is just what a Black Pastor in Norfolk, Virginia has discovered...

    http://www.goodsenseministry.com/forum/articledetail.asp?artID=16

    This is an file download of an MSNBC posting of the original WSJ article. Save-It Open-It
    http://digitalcoven.com/file.php?id=826&file=826-copy.html

    More Later...

    Mike Sr.
     
  2. Trotter

    Trotter
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    I tithe by choice, not by mandate.

    I figure if God is gracious enough to bless me with the ability to go to work and earn a wage, the least I can do is to give some back through tithing to my church.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  3. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
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    I am moving this to the "All Other Christians Forum" because that is a debate forum, this is a fellowship forum.

    Thanks!
    ┬žue
     
  4. SpiritualMadMan

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    And, that's the key for:

    2 Corinthians 9:7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful (Hilarious) giver.

    Another scripture I like to use is:

    Romans 14:23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

    Can something done under "compulsion" be 'of Faith'?

    That's one of the attributes of Works...

    The "Have To"...

    I give offerings because I want to, and it's the right thing to do...

    I can't tithe because of my legalistic upbringing...

    My makeup is a real stickler for Grace vs Law...

    I always viewed "The Tithe" as law. Even though Abraham Tithed. Probably because of the way it has been taught...

    So, as soon as I got the calculator out I was under condemnation of the Law of the Tithe and was foiled... (Hey, a hangup doesn't have to be scriptural to crucify you.)

    In my case I prayed about it and I believe I was led to an interesting solution... Give a set amount each payday whether it's a Tenth or not...

    Viola! No calculator... Not a tithe... Not doing it from a Law stand point! WhoooWhooo does that feel good!

    IMHO, The Abrahamic Tithe is not the tithe of the Law. Nor, is it the Tithe taught in most churches...

    Abraham Tithed **after** the battle, after the deliverance not to win the Battle not to get Deliverance.

    And, *only* of the spoils he had with him...

    It was his natural inclination towards thankfulness for what God had done...

    In the Law the Tithe was a required *preventative*. It prevented the curse... To allow the Blessing...

    Do you see the juxtapopsition? The attitudinal differences...

    One version of the tithe is given out of Love and Thankfulness for what God had already completed...

    The other as an obligatory work to obtain one thing and avoid another...

    Personally, I have come to the conclusion that in Christ the Curse is done away with... But, all the Blessings remain...

    Try re-reading Malachi 3 with that perspective. [​IMG]

    2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

    These promises, in the Greek, are divine assurances of Good... So, no one can say the curses are 'promises'! :D

    BTW: Many scholars believe the reason Malachi 3 was so 'rough' is because the Tithe being neglected was what some call the Welfare Tithe leaving no relief for the Fatherless and Widows... (See Isaiah 58 )

    So, again IMHO, a church has no right to preach on Tithing at all using Malachi 3 if it doesn't have a world class benevolence program...

    Mike Sr.
     
  5. PJ

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    Outstanding post, Trotter. [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  6. music4Him

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    All I know is that in Mal 3:10........
    Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

    That is part that the Lord says to prove Him.
    Well my husband and I has our daughter to be our accountant. She liked to have had a fit when we told her we wanted to start tithing in the church. But nevertheless we did start tithing. And now she is seeing the benefits in our account! But as with what Trotter said we are the same way we don't give because we have to, we give because we want to.

    Now I heard a fellow last night talking about the seven blessing of giving then said that a person had to give $200.00 dollars. *click* Tunned the channel on that. I also heard another person say on TV the other day if you give 68:19 as with the verse in Psalm 68:19.
    Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.
    *click* Turn the channel!

    To me... God don't set the price on tithes that way (i.e. $200.oo or $68.19). Its 10% of our first fruits and any thing over that is overflow. The thing I like is that our church is giving into other ministries too.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Good post 4Him!
     
  8. BobRyan

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    As for the argument that "God's Law is bad - lets dump it" consider that this is the same view that Satan would have of the Creator's Law.

    By contrast - notice what Paul says about it --

    The rebellious Jew Is Condemned by the Holy Just True and binding Law of our Creator God

     
  9. SpiritualMadMan

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    I wouldn't say to chuck "The Law"...

    But, that the Law of Faith predates and supercedes "The Law"...

    I have no problem (now) with tithing provided it is not a "have to" issue...

    That is, IMHO, when it is not from the abundance of the heart it becomes a faithless work.

    People who have Faith, as opposed to fear, in Tithing are truly a Blessed People...

    But, not everyone has been raised in a way that makes a Faith and Love Based "Tithe" possible for them...

    All God's People *should* want to give... It should be in their hearts to give... If it isn't then it is a matter for the Holy Spirit to address.

    Look at Paul's charge to Annanias and Saphira... It wasn't the amount they gave, it was the attitude of their hearts when they gave, and the pretense that they gave more than they did...

    As far as Paul was concerned it was their money to do with as they wanted... Just don't try to gain advantage in the church with your giving...

    We *should* Tithe... But, I have not seen a NT command that makes tithing a "Have To"...

    Granted some churches make tithing a prerequisite for membership. That's their business as long as they don't make it a Salvation "Have To".

    Or, bring condemnation on those that do not yet have the Faith to give a full tithe...

    Now I'm broke... I've done given my two cents and my pocket is empty! :D

    Mike Sr.
     
  10. music4Him

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    [​IMG]

    Good point in your post Mike! [​IMG]
    Sometimes I felt like the condemed person not giving a full tithe. Then I had a revelation that changed my whole attitude. God don't want our money He wants us!
    I sing and offer it to the Lord, I cook a cake sometimes for the church (as I'll be doing tonight) it is a part of tithe to the church to bless others. I clean the tolits in the church and sometimes work in the nursery and figured this talent is a tithe that is given in love so others can be blessed. God gave us all gifts and talents, He has blessed each of our hands to do something, as soon as I started blessing others (or if it is better said tithing my time with the talents he given me to bless others) then a improvement in our finances began to improve and now we tithe with our income too. It works because Gods word says.

    If I had only two shirts and I seen a man with no shirt... and now knowing what I know it says in God's word. I'd give him the best out of the two shirts I have.
     
  11. SpiritualMadMan

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    Yes, but many churches do not value anything except the money in the Offering Plate...

    That is one thing I won't do...

    Is attend a church where all they want is my money and nothing else but a warm pew from me...

    And, when someone gives their time and talent it is often not 'credited' to them...

    If I had a 'tithe' reciept for all the 'free' Programming; PC repairs; carpentry; plumbing; and other 'professional' services I have freely given...

    Well, I wouldn't have to give money at all! [​IMG]

    But, forgive me, I rant...

    Let me close by encouraging Pastors and Board Members to give a tithe reciept or "tithing grace" to people who do "professional" work in your churches...

    Especially if you know they are in hard times financially...

    At least show them how much they mean to you...

    (I for one appreciate a heart-felt **private** thanks. Call me out in front of everyone and I'll disappear for a while...)

    Mike Sr.
     
  12. Claudia_T

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    I think what people dont understand is that you can do 1 of 3 things...

    1. Give money out of obligation

    2. Dont give money at all

    3. Give money because you love your neighbor and want the gospel to be spread to others just as it was given to you because of someone caring enough to give of THEIR money.

    If you choose option number 1 or 2 then you dont have love and you arent keeping the law. If you choose door number 3 then you are indeed keeping the law.

    ..and so the answer is, keep the law but actually REALLY KEEP the Law. Its not a question of pitting the keeping of the law against the not keeping of it, its a question of keeping the law from the motive of love, and any other lawkeeping isnt lawkeeping at all, according to the scriptures.


    Matthew:23:
    23: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
    24: Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
    25: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.


    I Cor 13:
    1: Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
    2: And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
    3: And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

    Claudia
     
  13. Claudia_T

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    ... Not to mention the fact that we need to realize that nothing we have is really OURS to begin with, it is God's and He gives it to us to be used for the building up of His kingdom.

    In the parable of the talents it says

    Matthew 25
    14: For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them HIS goods.

    15: And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.


    and whether you choose option number 1 or number 2 STILL EITHER WAY, you are not doing what God wants. Its not as if you can say, well I dont HAVE to do anything so I will wait till I get some sort of "happy happy" feeling in my soul and feel like giving something..


    25: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
    26: His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
    27: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
    28: Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
    29: For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
    30: And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
     
  14. Claudia_T

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    Because if you do not tithe what you are really proving is that you have no just appreciation of what Jesus did for you.

    If you realized that in many cases, people wouldnt even hear the gospel message were it not for some generous people giving of their tithe money... then you, in mercy and love would want to return the favor and in mercy, give of your time and money so that the gospel message would be given to others...

    If you dont care about others, then I do not think that God is going to be smiling upon you at all, no matter if your claim is that you just werent feeling very "willing" that month.

    Mt:5:7: Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.


    On the other hand, if you give of your money out of obligation merely, that isnt going to do anybody any good either.

    Its kind of like the story of the man who owed the King money and is in prison, but the King in His mercy lets him out but then soon as he gets out he goes out and strangles someone else who owes HIM money..

    If the man doesnt show any just appeciation of whats been done for him, by turning around and doing someone else the same favor... well?

    Just like it said in Matthew 25 with the giving of the Talents:

    29: For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.


    In other words, God ave you all you have and meant that you use it for the upbuilding of His kingdom. If you selfishly withhold it and dont use it for that purpose, one day it is going to be taken away from you, just as you have withheld it from others.

    Lk:6:38: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


    Claudia
     
  15. SpiritualMadMan

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    Agreed!

    I agree with the overall concept of Stewardship...

    But, do you have chapter and verse that actually says *everything* belongs to God?

    I mean in reality as the Creator He does own everything...

    But, I firmly believe that He has given into our hands many things which He has left totally up to our Discretion...

    Consider...

    Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?

    Acts 5:4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."

    Apparently God allows at least the 'fiction' of Personal Ownership...

    Also, about in Matthew it was an "Ought To" not a "Have To" and it was specifically targetted at the Jewish Leadership...

    Consider this one:

    Mat 17:24 After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax[2] ?"
    Mat 17:25 "Yes, he does," he replied.
    When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes--from their own sons or from others?"
    Mat 17:26 "From others," Peter answered.
    Mat 17:27 "Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him. "But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."

    I guess in some ways it depends upon whether you view yourself as a Son, Daughter or an 'other'... [​IMG]

    Don't get me wrong... Giving is definately enjoined in the NT... Cheerful & Planned Giving...

    If you don't plan to give... You won't...

    2 Corinthians 9:7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

    Also, I tend to challenge the concept that your giving has to be given only to your local church...

    If that is done then how can we obey this Scripture?

    Matthew 6:3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,

    And, as I said before it was the lack of Meat in God's House for the Fatherless and Widows that reaped the rebuke in Malachi 3...

    Lastly, how many times have you heard an offering prayer to bless (only) those that give?

    Wouldn't a true Pastor's heart be praying that God would bless all the congregation even those that couldn't give such that they's feel guilty over not giving? :D

    My own Pastor's Heart (you can have the heart and not be a pastor) is such that I want to see God's People Blessed.

    I want them to see God work and Give after the order of Abraham, Joyfully and Freely...

    Mike Sr.
     
  16. Claudia_T

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    Actually now that I think about it, I question the motives of people who dont give because it is an obligation but then they will give if it is can be done voluntarily.

    It makes me wonder why they wouldnt give in the first place. Because if their heart was right with God and they were giving from the right reasons they'd of given either way.

    It reminds me of some teenage rebellious kid who refuses to clean up his room since dad told him to... but then if there comes a time that he "feels" like it, then he will do it, all the while claiming that he did it this time because "nobody MADE him do it". How childish is that? You ought to be cleaning up the room because the room needs cleaning, and because you respect and love your father... and realize what you do or dont do has an effect on everyone around you.

    Instead of focusing on your own selfish self and refusing to do anything till someone happens to say the right thing to make you "feel" like doing it. :rolleyes:


    Claudia
     
  17. Jim1999

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    I don't think the tithe is mandated in scripture, but I do think it is a minimum guideline, and then there are offerings over and above that.

    If tithing creates a hardship for a family, I would be the first one to suggest they keep their tithe and make good use of it for food and shelter, a first priority.

    If all members of a given church tithed, there would never be a financial need in any church properly run and not into excessive unessential "things".

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  18. Claudia_T

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    To summarize my thoughts, instead of trying to rid ourselves of the Law, thinking that this will make us "free" to do things out of love, we need to realize that the law IS love.

    Jesus said love God (first 4 commandments) and love your neighbor (last 6 commandments).

    If you truly love both God and your neighbor you will be found giving your tithe out of a loving and willing heart. You will not refuse to give of your tithe until you think you have some sort of warm fuzzy feeling inside first.

    Jesus said "The Truth will make you free" and the Pharisees said in response that they are not in bondage to any man... Jesus returned with saying "Any man who sins is in bondage and a slave to sin"

    John 8:
    32: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
    33: They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
    34: Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.


    Too much today we hear this sloppy "Hippie" type love going around when people dont realize God IS love and His government is love and His law is love. It is the principle of living that He gave to us to go by.


    We need to get rid of this thing that causes us to want to do away with God's Law, thinking this will make us free when in reality we would be the worse kind of slaves to both Satan and to our own human sinful selfish natures.

    If you keep the principles of God's Law with the underlying motivation of love, THEN you will be free indeed.

    ...anything else is hypocrisy and phony as the Pharisees were. In their day they did all manner of rituals with no love... in our day too many Christians follow their example, only they refuse to do anything at all, or only if they "feel" like it.

    Ezek:33:31: And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.

    Mt:15:8: This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.


    You have to be born again and become a whole new creature, living for the purpose of glorifying God, not trying to serve God in fits of frenzy, off and on. You have to live by principle. You have to have an entirely new foundation and purpose for living.

    Lk:11:34: The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.

    Mt:9:17: Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.


    God doesnt want PATCHWORK RELIGION.

    Claudia

    [ April 21, 2006, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
     
  19. SpiritualMadMan

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    The Law is not LOVE...

    Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

    Mike Sr.

    Good Words Jim! [​IMG]
     
  20. BobRyan

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    James calls it "the Royal Law" speaking of "LOVE God with all your heart Deut 6:5 and LOVE your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18" -- and when speaking of the Creator's Ten Commandments - James calls them "The Law of Liberty".


    Paul says of that law "It is Holy Just and Good" Romans 7. He declares that the Law of God IS SPIRITUAL but he is carnal by contrast to the "holy just and good" law of God. THe Law that he "AGREES with in his mind".

    But I agree - that the Law of God defines what sin is - if there were no Law - there would be no need of a Savior to save us from the penalty that the continued-authorotative Law of God defines as the punishment for sin.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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