Tithing Is Rare

PJ, It's not being simple-minded, it may just be that you've been blessed with always having enough, and perhaps not been exposed to true poverty on an intimate level.
That's something to be grateful for indeed.

 

</font>[/QUOTE]In my experience, most Churches are not willing to do this. They are usually too busy spending their money on a bigger building to bother with such trifles as Debt Deliverance Meetings.



Joseph Botwinick

 

First of all---us "pas--sers" are given certain "tax" breaks---for instance---I do not pay FEDERAL INCOME TAX on my housing allowance--BUT(and its a big one)---I do have to pay Social Security tax on the same allowance.

The parsonage??? We figure out a yearly "Fair Rental Value" on it----and then report that to the IRS as income(that I never see)---I pay Federal and Social Security tax on all of the fair rent value

The church supplies the electric to the parsonage----at the end of each year--I tally up the $$$ amount of what I used---and pay Federal and Social on it---the same with the water I drink and shower up in!!

I mow my own yard---which really isn't mine---and I DO get to deduct the $$ amount I use on gasoline and oil--etc.---which adds up to nearly next to nothing.

I get to make a deduction in the amount I use for cleaning supplies for the parsonage!!! Wow-wee!!! You have any idea how much 409 and Clorox and Windex it takes ----- to get me into a lower tax bracket?????? spare me from laughin'!!!

Plus---here's the biggie!! I pay out of my "why-goozller" on Social Security. Since I am "Self employed"---the IRS says that I must "cough up" 15%----whereas the average Joe pays 7.5% and average Joe's employer pays the other 7.5%

Now---I figure all of this out on my tithing and giving---the whole "shoe bang", Hombre!!

Except--except---except---the "green handshakes" are few and far between!! But when they come---and they do come--I won't deny that---when they come---I tithe on the 'shake and report it to my CPA buddy who tallies it as income.

Any pastor who does less is a crook and a thief!

Your buddy,
Bro. David

[ April 20, 2006, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: blackbird ]

 

To blackbird and Joesph Smith, congradulations on your integrity. Hopefully, most ministers have the same integrity.

drfuss

 

Or is it your 1.8 cents? Remember, you "tithed" on this. </font>[/QUOTE]Well, maybe it was more like 1.8 cents ...

 

To be fair, the Jews only tithed on their increase.

 

drfuss said

I think most of us agree with you, but your comment triggered my memory of something a missionary to South America related several years ago.

In the area where he worked, the pastors not only knew what each member gave, so did all the other members and anybody who attended. Attendance and offering amounts were recorded in writing on a wall of the sanctuary.

We wouldn't put up with that in our culture, but those folks would have thought we were a bit strange.

 

I think most of us agree with you, but your comment triggered my memory of something a missionary to South America related several years ago.

In the area where he worked, the pastors not only knew what each member gave, so did all the other members and anybody who attended. Attendance and offering amounts were recorded in writing on a wall of the sanctuary.

We wouldn't put up with that in our culture, but those folks would have thought we were a bit strange. </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, yes, we do ... some of us ... put up with that in our culture. Some African-American churches record and publish the giving each week. This is after the offering is lifted by asking the entire congregation to walk by the offering plate or box and drop in the gifts. Personally I find it intimidating, but for many such churches it has become the norm.

 

When I first began tithing, I figured my net was my increase. But I finally realized that my gross is the increase, Uncle Sam just takes his cut before I get mine.

 

I wouldn't answer him at all. I'd just maintain my original testimony: "Somehow God always provided."

Only Americans, and only a few of those. The rest of the world would know that we were rich.

You decide; I cannot.

It never occurred to me that God might be obligated to me in some way. We tithed because we thought that it was right.

I have no access to that information and no guess as to the correct answer. The question never occurred to me.

 

But, a house owned by the church in which the preacher gets to live is not increase.

 

We only tithed on the cash income, not the trailer or the utilities. My wife had no additional income.

We never questioned the rightness of tithing. We considered that those ten bucks were the Lord's and thought no further about it.

I don't consider tithing a cure-all, and was careful not to say otherwise in my original post. I just gave my testimony: that's what happened. Many things go into the mix of a couple's standard of living.

For the record, though, I do NOT encourage couples to be reasonably financially secure before they marry and have children. Obviously they need to have some brains and the ability to work for a living, but that's not the same thing as "reasonably financially secure." Nor, however, do I give them the impression that all will work out so long as they tithe.

 

Now, if the church were giving them the house itself, it would be increase.

If you wait to marry and have children until you are "financially secure", most people will never marry and have children. There are always some insecurities there.

 

Thanks for your answers, Pipedude.
Thanks for your desire to live consistently.

But your answers do help show this issue is more complicated than we sometimes think.
You only tithed on your cash income.
You gave consistently, and according to your convictions. But it is the case that many would not classify what you did as tithing. They would see tithing as 10% of all your income, cash or otherwise.

Karen

 

That is one of the things that many debate about.
In one sense, what is the difference between A. they give you a check, you write a check to the landlord or B. they are the landlord so they don't bother to give you the check. You have received value either way.

Karen

 

It's the same thing as the difference of if you are renting in the real world: What's the difference between whether you pay your landlord $100 or $1000? It's how much it costs.

 

I'm not sure we are communicating clearly.
My point is that A. the church gives you a check for $1000 with which you pay rent.
Or B. you stay in the parsonage "for free" but it would cost you $1000 to rent comparably from someone outside the church.
Either way, you arguably have an "increase" of $1000 on which a tithe would be $100.

My point is that many, who say they tithe, would tithe on A or B. Many, who say they tithe, say only A, not B, is a tithable situation.

Karen

 

I handled the payroll and insurance for a small company for over 15 years.
I also was a tax preparer for an outside company for 3 tax seasons.

In my opinion, I have met very few people who actually tithe. But many of the people I have met think they tithe.
It is almost impossible to know whether you are truly tithing or not, unless you are self-employed. And maybe not even then.

For example, for the sake of argument, let's assume that tithing is to be based on cash "increase". If you tithe, maybe you do tithe on the value of your employer's contribution to your health insurance. It is a benefit you will receive if you are ill.
But many do not know and cannot find out what the real amount is that their employers contribute to health insurance. It can vary widely between similar companies. For example, a company with a standard Blue Cross policy might, in one year, pay quite a bit less than a large, self-insured company which had unusually large claims that year. If you work for such a self-insured company, do you tithe on what the "normal" value of insurance is, or the abnormal high value due to a lot of people in your company being sick and filing very large claims?
Do you tithe based on what your employer pays in workmen's compensation for you? It is a benefit you will receive if you are injured on the job. The amount paid, if you can find it out, is based partly on how safe that employer is historically, not just on you. So do you tithe more because you work for a more unsafe employer?
Do you tithe on what your employer pays in federal and state unemployment taxes for you? It is a benefit you will get if you are laid off. But the amount paid is partly based on how often your employer lays people off. So do you tithe more if your employer lays people off more than similar employers do?

In other words, in the modern employment world, a great deal of "increase" in a strict sense is invisible and never touches the W-2.
So the question is do you tithe on cash received or benefits received, including cash?

Karen

 

If I invite you to my house and feed you, do you tithe on the amount that it would cost you to go out and eat? If so, do you tithe on the amount if it came from the local greasy spoon or the 4 star restaurant?

 

Seems that this discussion has really become a mockery of the actual subject.

The important thing is that you give to God, period. The "10%" is just a suggestion... it isn't carved in stone.

In Christ,
Trotter