TITHING, OH MY

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Tazman, Feb 22, 2006.

  1. Tazman

    Tazman
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    I've heard people say before that tithing is not required in the new testament.
    The reasoning is that Jesus never addressed it.
    This kind of bothered me because I'm woundering who's really looking for Jesus to tell them NOT to tithe?

    One person says Jesus does not command it, but equally he does not reject it either!

    So, does Jesus' silence mean that we are not obligated to give since the Old covenant required it?
     
  2. Johnv

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    I don't care if it's required or not. I do it out of respect, thanks, and a responsibility to support my church. I can't think of any reason why a person would not tithe.
     
  3. drfuss

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    Old Testament tithing could only be done by sacrifacing animals and produce on the alter - see Duet. 14:22-27. The law prohibited giving money as the tithe. I do not know of any churches that sacriface animals or produce. Also, the tither was to be the first to partake of the tithe and then share it with the Levites.

    I would say that is different than the way tithing is presented in our churches today.
     
  4. Gup20

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    Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

    Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

    While the Tithe is not a new testament requirement (we are no longer under the law), certainly giving from the heart is faith in action. God is not after dollars, but after your heart. Giving is love. For God so loved, that He gave. A new testament on tithing is that it is a spiritual act of worship, and also spiritually represents our submission to Chirst as master and king. The Bible points to humanity's purpose as stewards of this world. What is money but a natural representation of this world. By giving we properly orient our priorities -- after all -- all things are His, and we are his officers.

    Moreover, we can see that giving to our churches advances His kingdom.

    Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
    Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
    Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; [or] if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
    Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn [it] into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
    Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

    If you are going by this, I would remind you:

    Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    The moment you feel you have to obey the law, you have heaped an impossible burden upon yourself. For if you feel you must be justified by the law, then you must follow every minute detail of the whole law for that justification to work. Clearly, that is impossible. In fact, the purpose of the law was to show that all have fallen short and are sinners -- the purpose of the law is to show that NO ONE can do the law.

    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    om 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

    Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
    Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
    Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

    That being said -- just because we are not obligated to do the law doesn't mean we can't be blessed by operating under God's economy:

    Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].

    There are very few places where God says "do this and prove me and see if what I say is true".
     
  5. Blackhawkk

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    I don't care if it's required or not. I do it out of respect, thanks, and a responsibility to support my church. I can't think of any reason why a person would not tithe.
    </font>[/QUOTE]John,

    Even though we can have our disagreements, you my my utmost respect for that statement!
     
  6. Faith alone

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    I understand your concern, but tithing is tied in with the OT law - it's purpose being to support the Levites and priests. It was kind of like a tax today. We are not under the law, nor is the Levitical priestly service needed today.

    When we insist on the validity of the tithe we are endorsing the Levitical system for dealing with our sins. Hence I refuse to endorse it.

    The biblical system for giving is made very clear by Paul in 2 Corinthians 8 and 9.

    There it is made clear that a person should give as he has made up his mind - not reluctantly nor under compulsion. It is also clear that when God is blessing us financially we can help those brothers and sisters in Christ who are in need. We read elsewhere that those who are taught the Word should help those who are doing the teaching (Galatians 6:6). It is clear as well that some elders, esp. those who are involved in the teaching of the Word, are worthy of our financial support since they are investing their time in preparing to teach (1 Timothy 5:17, 18).

    But the OT tithe? Well, it was specifically negated when Paul said that we are not under the law. What Jesus said was in the context of still being under an OT Levitical system.

    Did Paul or John or Peter or James or any other NT author ask people to support them with their tithes? Today our churches do need our support. And the NT does say much about our support of those who are teaching us the Word of God. We are under obligation to help them. But to call it a tithe is to attempt to take something based on the OT Levitical system and misapply it. Why is this done? To make Christians feel guilty and to bring improper pressure to bear that the Bible does not tell them to do. Those who support their local churches are promised to be blessed. Why not encourage people to trust God with their finances rather than place an unbiblical burden on them? Are not those who do so perhaps failing to trust in God themselves?

    FA
     
  7. Faith alone

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    I don't care if it's required or not. I do it out of respect, thanks, and a responsibility to support my church. I can't think of any reason why a person would not tithe. </font>[/QUOTE]John,

    Even though we can have our disagreements, you my my utmost respect for that statement! </font>[/QUOTE]John,

    The OT tithe is certainly an excellent guide for the Christian... just as thee fact that an "elder" in the OT was 40+ years of age, and hence a good rule-of-thumb for NT elders would be the same. (Of course, Baptist churches generally treat their staff as elders, and don't really have elders as such, but the point remains.)

    But just as I wouldn't encourage a church to employ the age of 40 in a legalistic manner for all staff members or elders, so I would expect that the tithe would remain a rule-of-thumb for the NT believer.

    "Each one should give as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

    We give from what we have. God blesses such giving.

    BD
     
  8. billwald

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    Why would a Christian want to be a freeloader?
     
  9. drfuss

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    billwald posts:
    Why would a Christian want to be a freeloader?

    Freeloader??? Are you suggesting that christians who realize tithing is only an O.T. requiement for Israel, believe that only to avoid giving?

    For over 50 years, we have given over 10% each year. We realize that tithing is only an O.T. requirement, but is a good guide to follow.

    In a way, churches that teach tithing as a requirement actually reduce the blessings of a christian that tithes. If I give 13% as offering, it is a 13% offering. If a tither gives 13%, it is only a 3% offering since they believe 10% already belongs to the Lord.
     
  10. eloidalmanutha

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  11. Tazman

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    Thanks all.

    I do not believe that just because the OT has commandments covering many things including tithing that the hearts of those who were under the law still desired to give back to God from their own gratitude. In other words, obedience to commands does not mean that the person is any less genuine or faithful than those one who gives without a command.

    Tithing or giving to Gods servants (as Giving to God) existed long before the Levites/preisthood.

    When I see some one give to Jesus' ministry, I see a person who truly understands Christ. Just like the poor widow who gave everything she had to live on.

    The Hebrew writer when making a comparison of Jesus and Melchizedek spoke of Abrahams's "Tenth" of EVERYTHING (this should include currency)given to Melchizedek. Now if Melchizedek was Honored in such High regard, how much MORE should Christ.
    THough "Tithing" was not the Hebrew writers issue to address, but really Christ as the true High Priest. In order to make a SOLID case of High Priest and their importance, the Hebrew writer referenced Abraham (Father of faith) tithing to one greater than himself. Again, How much more Christ than us.

    The "Law" was far after Abraham and the things done in faith by him, not the "Law" (though the SAME faith existed under the law). If he is the Father of Faith why should we not follow his example of Honoring God in tithing (everything - currency included)?

    I give primarily because I want to and it has become a life style for us. Few times I have not felt like giving, but I did anyway because God is honored when I deny the flesh and give to him. I believe He expects it from all of us.

    I believe Malachi 3 refelcts Gods heart in expectation of our Hearts not just a "command of Law". It is and always WILL be a heart issue. IF the heart is right so will the giving be. Command or No Command faith exist under both!

    Just my thought.
     
  12. drfuss

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    Tazman,

    If you are saying giving is important whether you count it as tithe or not, I agree. However, tithing should not be invoked by taking scripture out of context as many churches do.

    BTW, Abraham's "tenth of everything" was a tenth of everything taken in the raid. There is no record of Abraham tithing on his own possessions or the increase of his possessions.

    Too many times requiring a tithe robs a person of freely giving it as offering.
     
  13. Faith alone

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    I agree.

    "Each one should give cheerfully and without a sense of compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

    But consider:
    If we do something because we believe God commands it, we will not likely be able to do it cheerfully, freely. As was said, let's give the 13% cheerfully, not just the 3%.

    Very good point. Abraham did give 10% before the law. But we do not find any command to give 10% there. We see an example. There is no Scriptural record that he ever tithed regularly. Also, when Abraham gave that 10th it was not from his possessions, but from the spoils of the battle that he fought to free Lot and his family.

    The "command" to give 1/10 came with the law. We see the example in Abraham. We also see an example in Jacob. SO that is a viable rule of thumb. But things have changed much since then. We no longer have a Levitical priesthood to support with itsd accompanying sacrificial system. We no longer have the Levite tribe to support, a large portion of the population - about 1/20th in number. If we attend a church of say 300 peoiple, are there 15 people on full-time staff? (5%) Plus the government takes a very large portion before it is free for us to use.

    So to legalistically say that all must give 10% to the church because it's God's money is contrary to Paul's teaching in the NT, and to Jesus as well, who said that if we gave it would be given to us... "good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over..." If they would be honest, they'd admit that they really mean it's THEIR money. (and those who advocate the tithe insist on it being BEFORE the government gets their hands on it, of course... should we have expected any less?)

    Good question. My objection is not the use of the tithe as a rule of thumb, but the legalistic use of it to congregations today. My pastor refers to it as a command to new members in the new member class. He also said that he feels it to be his responsibility to verify that leaders of the church (staff as well as deacons) are giving 10% to the church. Now that is totally unbiblical and offensive. I'm going to have to have a discussion with our pastor on this in private some time, and would appreciate your prayers on it. (Though I do not agree with him about the tithe, it's just the checking on our giving that troubles me.)

    And very good thoughts, Taz. Thx.

    FA
     
  14. Faith alone

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    Excellent
     
  15. Faith alone

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    Thx - excellent links. i particularly liked the 1st one from the Milpitas Bible Fellowship library...

    The conclusion is excellent, too:
     
  16. drfuss

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    Faith alone - The aove is a very good post.
     
  17. drfuss

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    Sorry for the spelling error. It should read: Faith alone - The above is a very good post.
     
  18. Faith alone

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    Thx, only I can't take credit for it - it's an excerpt from one of those links. But I agree - an excellent article.

    Wish I'd said it. [​IMG]

    FA
     
  19. Tazman

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    Thanks All


    I appreciate allot point shared and agree with most of them, however, there are few within "reasoning" I may contend with a bit:


    Okay, we obviously have a Definition issue. During Abraham's time I do not believe what he had done was ever referred to as a "Tithe". It seem to be referred to as a "tithe" in hindsight by the Hebrew writer. So as the early Christians recognized it "Tithing" is "Giving". Now, place it is certain "circles" and/or "Times" It could seem like a "Tax" or whatever. It seems clear the "Giving" if you will was established way before the "Giving under the Law".
    This is the point: Law or NO Law giving IS giving and God excepts them both. Both are to be given with a grateful heart. Rather there's the "Law or Conscience" or the "Law of His Command" both can cause a person to struggle in their giving if at some point there heart wavers.


    I do not agree with everything here, because, the bible is clear the God never Change. And God has since the beginning of time excepted "Offerings" and/or "Tithes". Jesus did not address EVERY issue in the Law including thithes as being not required. Matter of the fact once could say excepted them and did not condemn the giving those who give systematically (Matthew 23:23-24 "mercy" & "faith" was just as important then as it is now") Don't forget that people were giving to Jesus' ministry - the poor widow and others, but she was recognize as having given more than the others, not that the others giving was NOT acceptable. In comparison there's weren't as great as the Widow's. Notice Jesus did not reject the giving of those who gave out of wealth(tithing).

    I would be careful of how you approach your paster about his holding others accountable for their giving. I don't think you have a solid case for saying people are NOT required to give. Not ALL giving being required by and accepted by God is strictly related to the Levitical Law. Also, Jesus never addressed it along with other things as Not being required. I don't think it was ever an issue. Paul tells Timothy to command those who are rich to..(1 tim 6:17-19) Your preacher does have authority... I would have an open mind when approaching him. That's all.


    Again Abraham (father of faith) giving was before the Levitical law. In fact when the Levites gave they gave through Abraham too, so to speak (Heb 7:4-9.) In hinesight the Hebrew writer referred to Abraham's giving as a Tithe. So the term "tithe" should be considered applicable WITHOUT it being linked to portions of the Law that is rejected by christians today.

    Not really, because Paul never commanded people to give or not to give. "Should" is a suggestion "Shall" is a requirement. Also keep in mind that 2 Cor 8 is primarily addressing giving to poorer christians (equality).
    Now consider this in what Paul thought Paul could have collected for his own needs, but HE chose not to in some cases. (1 Cor 9)

    True, and I agree with part of this, however, Consider that Abraham Gave to some one greater than himself. THis person was a priest. I don't know of any others that Abraham would have had an opportunity to give to other than Melchisedech. We have Jesus to give to. A higher priest.

    thanks everyone for your input. [​IMG]
     

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