Tithing

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Rev. Joshua, Aug 20, 2002.

  1. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
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    One of the members private-messaged me asking that I post the topic of this thread .

    They wanted to know how pastors feel about tithing.

    Joshua
     
  2. Circuitrider

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    "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse...." Sounds biblical to me. :D Certainly that is the principle Paul had in mind when he challenged the believers in Corinth to give above their giving to the church and help those other believers in need.

    The biblical tithe is the basis for all giving. :cool:
     
  3. Bible-belted

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    Hi Johsua,

    What kind of "feelings" are we talking about? I have a lot of feelings about tithing, many of them coflicting! So can we narrow that down a bit? Or would you prefer I just fire away?

    Well, I guess I can give a few thoughts. 1) I am pretty well convinced that tithing is not an NT practice. 2) I am also convinced that the NT says we are to give, and do so sacrificially. 3) The NTs standard for sacrificial giving i the service (hower defined) of Christ far exceeds the 10% figure. 4) In defending their freedom from tithing people are as much if not more defending their wallets as their freedom in Christ. Freedom from service IMO is not a legitmate freedom. 5) The alternative use for money not tithed ought to be an issue. Not giving to the benevolent fund and hen turning wround to by a boat is just a bad idea. 6) Many people still think it is THEIR money. 7) Stewardship is not even on the radar screen far too often. 8) I still don't use guilt or compulsion to promote minsitries, I insist that people pray about giving and I refuse to engage the finance people ina conversation that starts out "boy some people don't give lik they should" or anything close to that. 9) I believe that money is the least of things 10) God doesn't actually need the money. 11) people ARE, as an observable matter, blessed when they give, using 10% as a floor. 12) God may not need the money but the bank which holds themortgage on the church and the utilities do need the money.

    So in a nutshel I have a lot of conflicitng thoughts. There may be a summary in there somewhere.
     
  4. go2church

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    For me it is a matter of obedience for the believer. We give because we are told to, "If you love me you will keep my commandments." The amount is to be generous and a real sacrifice on the part of the believer. To some a $1000 a week wouldn't even be missed but for others a $1000 a year would be a tremendous sacrifice. I use the 10% number as a starting point for those learning to give, not a final expectation.
     
  5. Ulsterman

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    In my experience usually those who contest the principle of tithing are those who don't.
     
  6. blackbird

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    Anytime we let a Jew living under the law give more than we can living under grace--we become a disgrace to grace!

    Ask me how many of my church members tithe and I'll tell you everyone of 'um do! Either they give it or God comes and gets it--but everyone of 'um tithe!
     
  7. ChristianCynic

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    Ask me how many of my church members tithe and I'll tell you everyone of 'um do! Either they give it or God comes and gets it--but everyone of 'um tithe!

    That's a pile of bunk. How do you think you could ever show that?
     
  8. Pastor_Bob

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    Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
    11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes , and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

    I agree blackbird, when we faithfully give God the tithe, He rebukes the devourer. When we don't, one thing is for sure, we won't get to use it like we planned.

    It is wonderful that God takes great care of those who honor Him. The tires on the car last longer, the visits to the doctor are less frequent, the sales at the store are right on time.

    It's just like God did for the Children of Israel when he kept their shoes from wearing out all those years.

    We serve a great God!
     
  9. ChristianCynic

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  10. Pastor Larry

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    Has anyone here ever stopped to think that the Malachi passage is referring to tithing under the Law? It was for OT Israel, not for the church. I could see where a covenant theologian would use this (although I have never heard it). The distressing part is the only people I have ever heard preach it for the church are dispensationalists. Tithing is great ... if you are an OT Israelite under the Law. Then you better give the 23% that was required. If you are a NT Christian, just give. Don't get hung up on the tithe. Giving generously, proportionally, and cheerfully to the local church (1 Cor 9).
     
  11. Don

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    Pastor Larry, you are correct; don't get hung up on the tithe.

    But as for it being only an Old Testament thing...well, I don't think so.

    1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
    2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

    Seems to me there's two things being talked about here:
    1) "Let every one of you lay by him in store" sounds an awful lot like "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse"
    2) "Collection for the saints" sure sounds an awful lot like "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith."

    Now, the argument could be made that the word "tithe" isn't used here; of course, the opposite side of that coin could be that Paul didn't use the word because it was pretty much understood what he was talking about.

    A better argument would be to use the principle found in Acts 4 & 5, where the people sold all they had, and brought it to the apostles for use. Of course, Paul wasn't there at the time, and I'd be interested in hearing from those that believe we should give all that we have today, as this principle is mainly used today by cult figures like David Koresh and Michael Travesser.

    So Pastor Larry, I'm not sure I agree with you. I think the tithe was still being addressed in the New Testament.
     
  12. Pastor Larry

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    You agree the word is not there. So why isn't it? You say becasue everyone knew what he was talking about anyway. I say because he wasn't talking about that at all. It seems to me that Paul was addressing the principle of giving. "As God has prospered him" is proportional gift. Don't let the traditions and customs overrule biblical teaching. The tithe is never mentioned in the NT and we are expressly told we are not under the Law. The collection for the saints was probably a gift for the churches undergoing famine in Jerusalem. In Acts 4 and 5 the reference is to generous giving to meet the needs of the people. Selling all that they had doesn't sound like a tithe to me. It sounds like "all that they had."

    I think too many people get away with 10% because that is what they have been told to give. They ought to be giving more.
     
  13. Sherrie

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    Don
    Tell Michelle to check your pm.
    Sherrie [​IMG]
     
  14. Don

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    Man oh man, will I agree with that. Too many people look at the 10% as "all I have to give" rather than "gee, what else can I give today?"

    However, the tithe is mentioned in the New Testament, several times:
    Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42, Luke 18:12, Hebrews 7:5-9

    But the woman who gave her two mites, instead of just her tithing--now that was a woman that was honoring and honored by God.

    My personal belief, Pastor Larry, is that the tithe is a good guideline (and only a guideline, not a law) for beginners, new Christians, who are just learning what it's all about.
     
  15. Don

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    Got it, Sherrie. Thanks.
     
  16. blackbird

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    Gee, Cynic! We meet again--first, its on the booze issue and now its on the tithing issue. You believe in guzzling a few "cool ones" with "the boys" and probably a few just by yourself--but you don't believe in tithing!

    I was just responding to Brother Villines' thoughts--as to what "you pastors out there" thought about the tithe--and I gave him my thoughts"--then you come out of nowhere--debunking just a "thought" that I have a way of making verbal on Sunday mornings when I'm preaching on giving!

    Let me ask you--when your pastor is preaching on Sunday mornings and you kinda--sorta--you know--disagree with him on some issue--do you stand up there and cry "foul" while he's giving his thought or do you go home to your wife and stew over it a little and settle your self down and in a polite Christian way--see if you can get along with the preacher who may or may not see eye to eye with you?

    How many times have you had to move your letter until you found a preacher who (1)believes in guzzling a few brews and (2) doesn't believe in NT tithing?? Have you told the parents of your teenage boys at church that you think its alright to drink a little? Suppose I came over to your church and started handing out packs of Red Man chewing tobacco to your teenage boys("Here you are, Son! You played a good football game last Friday!)--what would you do?
     
  17. Pastor_Bob

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    It has always been God's plan to finance His work through His people. That was His plan in the OT and I see no evidence that He rescinded that principle in the NT.

    Neh 13:10 And I perceived that the portions of the Levites had not been given them: for the Levites and the singers, that did the work, were fled every one to his field.
    11 Then contended I with the rulers, and said, Why is the house of God forsaken? And I gathered them together, and set them in their place.
    12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries.
    13 And I made treasurers over the treasuries, Shelemiah the priest, and Zadok the scribe, and of the Levites, Pedaiah: and next to them was Hanan the son of Zaccur, the son of Mattaniah: for they were counted faithful, and their office was to distribute unto their brethren.

    If God's man and God's house are to be taken care of, it has to come from God's people. Of course, the tithe is the starting point. We need to teach our people the truth of Luke 6:38: "Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again."

    I have personally seen God take my 80 - 90% and do with it what could not have done with the 100%. Especially when I was in Bible College with a wife and three children. Our finances would not work out if I tried to put them down on paper, but always met our needs. I am convinced that it is because, regardless how bad things were for us, we always honored and obeyed God with the tithe and an offering.

    [ September 01, 2002, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Bob 63 ]
     
  18. Chet

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    Pastor Bob

    Just like the Charismatics, you are basing your theological presumptions on experience. :(

    I have plenty of those "God takes care of me" stories also, and take a guess at what I don't do. [​IMG]

    [ September 01, 2002, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Chet ]
     
  19. Pastor_Bob

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    Brother, I am basing my theological conclusions on the following verses:

    Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

    Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
    To see what "all these things" are, refer back to verse 31.

    Phil 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
    The context of this passage is "giving." When we honor God and give, He supplies our need.

    I have no problem sharing experiences as long as that experience is founded in the Word of God. Haven't you ever shared you salvation experience with anyone?
     
  20. Chet

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    Brother Bob,

    With all due respect to you, you are basing your beliefs on an expermental bases and a wrong understanding of the book of Malachi. Just like the Charismatics use Acts 2 to justify tongues saying, see... its in the Bible! When it is a miss-use of the Bible. Not that I think your are deliberate.

    First off, Malachi was a prophet to the Nation of Israel.

    Mal 1:1 An oracle: The word of the LORD to Israel through Malachi.

    Mal 4:4 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel. (also read Mal. 2:11 2:16)

    Mal 2:11
    Judah has broken faith. A detestable thing has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem: Judah has desecrated the sanctuary the LORD loves, by marrying the daughter of a foreign god.

    Mal 2:16
    "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.


    See also Malachi 1:4, Malachi 1:6 ,Malachi 1:8, Malachi 1:9, Malachi 1:10 , Malachi 1:11, Malachi 1:13 , Malachi 1:14, Malachi 2:2, Malachi 2:4, Malachi 2:7 , Malachi 2:8, Malachi 2:12, Malachi 2:16, Malachi 3:1, Malachi 3:5, Malachi 3:7, Malachi 3:10, Malachi 3:11, Malachi 3:12, Malachi 3:14, Malachi 3:17, Malachi 4:1, Malachi 4:3 where the phrase Lord of Hosts appears. This has a meaning of God over Israel, or over the armies of Israel. Clearly this is a book to the nation of Israel not to the NT. Church.

    This shows that God was using Malachi the Prophet to speak to Israel His chosen people, to whom alone the Law was given, Israel was in disobedience to God and was sarcastic with Him when confronted with their transgressions. God asked them some questions and Israel's reply was "wherein have we sinned against thee Lord? Rest assured God told them where they were in the wrong. One of the issues on the mind of God, tithing.

    Mal 3:8-11 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' "In tithes and offerings. You are under a curse-the whole nation of you-because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.

    This is something nearly every commentary supporting Church tithing likes to leave out of their literature or sermons. Look at verse ten it says clearly "prove me now herewith, saith the Lord OF HOST. He is clearly talking to Israel to whom alone the Law was given. The Church is not under consideration here. And if it were, then should we not give what a true tithe is, a tenth of food out of our gardens? Look at the promise given to them if they start tithing again: 1) Their storehouse would be full to the brim 2) God would give them a blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it and 3) God will rebuke the devourer for their sakes, and He shall not destroy the fruits of their ground; neither shall their vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts (Malachi 3:11). What does God mean by "rebuke the devourer so he won't destroy the fruits of the ground?" What could the devourer be? Certainly we possibly could say, and only possibly, that this is symbolic of Satan but taken literally and practically we can’t miss its meaning. It was the bugs and worms that destroyed their fields. The devourer that was to be rebuked was something that was destroying the fruits of the ground, not any silver or gold, which was something that they did have. So how could this be interpreted to mean something that a Christian is to put in the offering plate?

    Furthermore, what exactly is "Storehouse tithing"? Tithers teach that the storehouse here in Malachi is the local Church or symbolic of the local Church i.e. the place of worship. The place where the tithes were to go. This is an unscriptural conclusion. We can't pick and choose different literal statements in Scripture and make them mean something that is completely not related to context by spiritualizing it. Unless the Bible specifically does so, we are not to try to make up symbols.

    Now let us look at the meaning of STOREHOUSE .

    Let us look at Gen. 41:56-57 as an example to see if we can understand the meaning:

    Gen 41:56-57 When the famine had spread over the whole country, Joseph opened the storehouses and sold grain to the Egyptians, for the famine was severe throughout Egypt. And all the countries came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the world.

    Here we can see that Joseph opened the store house to sell food, when the seven year famine was upon Egypt. We can see from the meaning by looking at the word itself store - house. A place where people kept their food or anything else they wanted. Where does a person get a local Church out of the word storehouse? Where can you find any symbolic reference to worship place? Where can you see the implications that there is only one place for your giving of your weekly tithe to go from the word storehouse?
     

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