Tithing

Eric_b
I've had Christians tell me that they KNEW that the KJV bible was the only bible that the English speaking people should use because God had told them so.

I certainly cannot argue about what God is telling you (or what you think God is telling you), but I suspect that many times we convince ourselves it is God when it is simply a strong desire we have within ourselves.

Don't misunderstand me, if you feel that God is telling you to tithe, then by all means do so. There is certainly nothing wrong with giving to God. However, it is difficult to have a discussion when one simply says that "God told them so." If God did tell them, we do not want to question God; if God did not tell them, they are not going to be convinced by anything we say. It's a losing proposition.

I, personally do not feel that the "tithe" applies to the New Testament chruch. I believe that all we have belongs to God and we should honor God with everything we have. We should support our church as we are able. I will support my family before I give to my church. I am not against giving to the church, but we do not live in a Theocracy.

 

Oh, yeah, I've heard people make some spurious claims about God telling them things in the past, and I very rarely make claims like this myself, but in this case it was crystal clear. There's a chance I could be wrong, I guess, but I really don't think so.

Please note that I only said that I believe God is telling *me* that *I* should tithe... I'm not saying that I know whether or not tithing is a Biblical requirement for the NT church. I'm honestly not sure, I really don't have any special insight about that. I wouldn't even say that I *know* that everyone else should tithe, just that I should.

I do repeat the suggestion that me, you, and every other follower of Christ ought to pray for direction in their giving from time to time. If you aren't even willing to pray about direction in how much you should give, that's probably a bad sign.

Eric

[ October 07, 2002, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: eric_b ]

 

Then answer the question: How many years before one reaches 100%, and have you reached it yet? If not, how long do you have to go?
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Why do we place so much emphasis on how much we give rather than how we give? Remember the woman who gave out of her poverty? It was not the fact she gave all she had, but she did not let her circumstances hinder the expression of her faith. The Lord looks at our heart, not at our 10%, 20%, or even 100%.

We mite or we mite not.
Jesus emphasized how much she gave... meaning all she had. He 'looked at' 100%.

 

I don't want to sound all Pentecostal, but I get a dollar figure each time I pray and ask how much I should give. It usually is around 10% of weekly gross. Rounded off to the nearest $10.

 

Guess how you sound.... Pentecostal.

 

How do you figure, Preachie?

 

I don't even know if we should use the word tithe. It seems to automatically give a lot of people an attitude. I know it did me all my life until recently when I changed my way of thinking.
God gives us ALL we have and He specifically states in the Bible that we are to give back to Him. Now I can't say I always pull my little envelope out as soon as we get paid and write out 10% as some feel is the maximum of what we should give, but we sponser our local College with meals, buy supplies, and other things for the church and its members. Now my Husband believes that the above things should come above and beyond the "10%", me I am not so sure. I do what I believe in my heart is the best I can do to give to God in a monetary way.
Truthfully I think there in lies the problem with our finances. We do not give what is expected because we can use that $50 a week "tithe" to pay a bill or two and we just say there is no way we can give that this week, and it never fails that we have problems. Now when we do give what God asks and more we are blessed everytime! Whether it be an unexpected check in thee mail, a dinner someone has brought over, or a job oportunity we are blessed!
I think we are all at a different level of spiritual growth and in time we will all see what God is telling us what He wants us to do. It just takes longer for some to get it. Like ME! At times I feel that perverbale smack on the back of the head that says get to it missy! That helps too!
Love in Christ Angieinstlouie

 

The tithe of ancient Israel was the same as our income tax today. Because Israel was a theocracy, the priests did the administering of the law and welfare system (widows, orphans, etc.) and also took their living from the tithe -- exactly the same as government officials do today.

Historically, in America, it has been when the church(es) stopped caring for the people in their community, whether or not they were members of that church, that the government found it necessary to step in and start caring for its population. In this sense, the churches have given up their right to that money by abandoning their responsibility of caring for the community in which God has planted them. Instead, most fund missionaries, social programs, 'church outreach', and church maintenance. None of those is bad, it's just that the church's first responsibility outside of its own memebers should be to its neighbors, not itself and not those around the world.

The 'storehouse', by the way, was used to feed people. The grains and other non-immediately-perishable goods were put there for use by the community as needed and the priests and temple caretakers as needed.

Now, Jesus fulfilled the LAW, but that did not abolish it, number one, and since He commanded we love our neighbors as ourselves, that commandment certainly applies not only to church members but to the church itself.

Inasmuch as the church abrogates that responsibility and government has to pick it up, or individual Christians, seeing a need and moving to fill it, pick it up, the church has given up its right to the tithe.

That being said, everything we have belongs to the Lord. It just doesn't belong to the church! In too many cases there is a distinct difference, dear pastors.

Case in point: my husband before left us 11 1/2 years ago. There is a Baptist church down the road that we used to attend. I had been asked to be deaf interpreter at another church and that was a real need and the church was a good Christian church, so I agreed. My children still went to Awana at the Baptist church every week for years, participating in almost every activity, competition, etc. They would rather consistently ask for prayer for me because of various problems we were having learning to cope as a single parent family. NOT ONCE did any member or the pastor or any person from that church even call, let alone inquire to see if they could help. However the 'pagan' manager of the nearby Safeway made sure we had enough food. The non-Christian owner of Midas Muffler made sure my car was in working order. That was interesting.

Case in point: my husband now is an Australian and a wonderful Christian man. In Australia it is illegal to sell day-old baked goods, so for many, many years, he would collect unsold goods at the end of the day several times a week from a couple of different bakeries and personally spend until about one in the morning delivering the goods to various needy families within about a 20 mile radius of his home. Some never even knew he was a physicist -- he was just "Barry the bread man"! The churches did not help these people because they were not members. However every single family is now Christian thanks to my husband's consistent caring and witness and prayers with and for them.

Case in point: one of the families bread was (and still is) delivered to is that of a Zimbabwean man in medical school. He already had a degree in mathematics and was married to a lovely wife, a nurse, and they had two sons. He is a devout Christian and was sure the Lord was telling him to go into medical school because that was so needed in his country. So when he got accepted by the University of Adelaide, with funding provided by his government and a private donor, he moved his family to Adelaide Australia and started school.

The Zimbabwean government collapsed, as did their economy. The private funding also reneged on the promise of money. Daniel was left in a strange country as a student with no income and no help but his faith that God would provide. Barry and I stepped in and individually and privately we have picked up all his medical school expenses. It has cost us almost everything. We cannot even spend much time together as we both care for autistic relatives in our respective countries and do not have the funds now to travel to see each other. But we know this is what God has shown us there is a need for, and no church was willing. We have asked churches here in the United States and in Australia for help. I have mentioned the need here. There has been no response except 'no' or silence from every single person and church. Daniel is one of the finest, most faithful Christian brothers I have ever met -- determined to do what the Lord has led him to do.

And then I read pages of ministers saying the tithe should be paid.

Sirs, everything we own belongs to God. That's number one. Number two is that the churches have given up their right to a tithe by their handling of the monies they have gotten in the vast majority of cases. Number three, God is leading individuals to do what the churches should be doing, thus using the money that way in many cases.

Sorry to be so blunt, but it's time someone said some of these things. Are we, or am I, bitter? No, not at all. How many times can two people help an entire country? It is a great privilege and we know that, even though the price is very high. But we are both very sad by the necessity of what we are doing.

In Christ,
Helen and Barry Setterfield

 

Could you please unwrap this statement a little for us? I'm curious about what it is exactly that you are refering to...?

Eric

[ October 13, 2002, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: eric_b ]

 

Could you please unwrap this statement a little for us? I'm curious about what it is exactly that you are refering to...?

Eric</font>[/QUOTE]1. Land purchases
2. Building funds
3. "Improvement" of existing facilities when they mean a kitchen upgrade for the ladies' potlucks!
4. Fancy audio-visual equipment

A lot of it is individual per church. A lot of it involves competition among various Christian churches for more members -- a bigger congregation -- which of course then requires more of everything else.

You know what we have seen in our travels? The "poorer" the church, the richer the people spiritually, the more the church pays attention to its congregation, and the more the congregation pays attention to the community in which they live. It's an interesting thing to see. The "rich" churches have their funds 'allocated' here and there. The "poor" churches end up staying much more flexible and thus much more available for the Lord's work. I know there are exceptions to this, but that is what we have seen in general.

 

Helen,

You make a lot of points worthy of consideration, but I think you are over-generalizing and perhaps assuming motives that are not there in how churches spend money.
Individual congregations decide these things. Hopefully, they listen to God as much as you or I do. Hard to believe, isn't it, when we would like to see different results, sometimes.

Also, I suppose I am one of those who have met your information about the Zimbabwean medical student with silence and $0.
If I had the money, there are some people in my congregation whose medical bills I would pay and whose mortgages I would eliminate. There are MANY appeals that come before my church and that come to me from various means.
You have acted wonderfully but it seems you have kind of expected others to chip in just from seeing that you are doing it and that you think it is important.

Did you form any kind of non-profit group to help this student or do you just write him personal checks? My church responds far better to people with more planned-out appeals than just a casual word to the pastor. There are normal means that God uses in our culture, and church budget committees are often among them.
Many people are very reluctant to just write checks and trust the individual to deal with it.

It IS worth asking why a man who already has a degree and a family perceives this call so strongly. The nature of such training is that his family will see very little of him for years, while they are living in an impoverished manner.
Or his wife working AND taking care of kids.
Does he have stamina to stay the course here?

Perhaps this is a time I would question whether he has his priorities in line with his enthusiasm.
These are questions people like answers to.
One of the perceived benefits of contributing to SBC type offerings is that these and other hard questions have already been asked.

It is a very hard thing to do something you believe God wants you to do and get no support. I do pray for blessings on you and that you will be able to use the methods and get the support that you should have.

Karen

 

Hi Karen,

Thank you for your response. No, I did NOT expect anyone here to contribute anything! What is interesting, though, is that you are the only person who has even said you would like to help if you could. Sometimes just verbal encourgement like that means a lot.

My husband spoke on his research, which has everything to do with the fact that this is a young universe (and therefore creation) last year to a church that has over 3000 families. An enormous church.

Seeing the size of the church, I quietly asked one of the elders if he thought I could privately approach the pastor about the possibility of each family giving one dollar a month for a year, and since our US dollars equal almost twice Australian dollars, that would take care of his school and family living expenses for quite some time!

No way.

We have submitted formal appeals to a number of churches who know us along with Daniel's resume and statement of faith.

Nope.

It was that sort of thing. It kind of left me stunned.

And no, we did not form any non-profit group. That takes money. He would have been done in one more year except one of his professors decided that he should have an extra year -- that it would be 'good' for him, make him a better doctor -- and so flunked him on a critical test for a critical course, so that year gets repeated. Is there an appeals process? No. We were appalled, but decided that the Lord was still in charge and we'd go for another year. He has two left to go before his residency is finished.

Can he stay the course? Oh my goodness yes! First of all, he was several years into medical school before the funding evaporated. Before our son stepped in with $500 US a month to help them with their living expenses (he also has met Daniel), Daniel was earning extra money picking fruit and tutoring other students. And still studying. And still, until that one professor, getting almost straight A's. His wife backs him fully and works part time as a nurse. Yes, they live in poverty, but I'll tell you something -- you walk into their flat and you are at home if you are a Christian. Their joy and faith pervade their home. The necklace I wore on Barry's and my wedding day two years ago was a gift from them that they saved up for out of their incredibly meager funds.

And yes, maybe I am over-generalizing where church spending is concerned. I live in an area where, between me and the freeway (6/10 of a mile), there are two churches, each with their own property and buildings. Go left before you hit the freeway and there are two more. Go right and there is another.

Across the freeway are two or three more. Down one exit are three more and one buying land for their own church.

And this is the COUNTRY!

Go down to Sacramento (we are in the foothills east of it) and you will find not just hundreds of churches, but many with building projects for upgrading, a couple I know of with "travel clubs" for their members, some with extensive manicured lawns taken care of by professional lawn care companies. If it is a generalization, it is one from what I have seen. We have spoken in churches with padded reclining chairs in the pews, lighting systems that rival an opera house, etc. etc. I guess I've had my mind blown one too many times not to finally say something somewhere.

Thank you for your patience.

One last thing: knowing Daniel and his wife and sons has been one of the big blessings of my life. We are just as sure as he and she are that the Lord is leading them this way. If they are not murdered when they get back to Zimbabwe in a couple of years (a possiblity for anyone there who is educated right now), what he has to give his country will be wonderful and so, so needed. He hopes to set up a clinic. That's all. A hospital is beyond dreams, but a clinic will help his people immensely.

No, I'm not asking for money. The Lord has seen us through this, too, and we have learned so much about trusting Him! That lesson is definitely worth the hard times. Barry put their family home in Adelaide up for sale and got a very good price for it. With the money we have been able to buy a smaller home for his sister (whom Daniel's wife helps us care for, as she is a high functioning autistic epileptic) and have enough left over to pay off our debts where Daniel's education is concerned and pay for the rest of the year. In June my youngest graduates from high school and we will sell this home, which is monstrous (we had six children and we are on a prime flat acre in the hills), and pay for the rest of Daniel's education and buy ourselves a smaller home, probably in Oregon, as California is incredibly expensive now. So the Lord has provided a way, bit by bit. It's a VERY good lesson for us and for those watching us as well.

So there's a light at the end of the tunnel for all of us, and we are no longer asking for help for Daniel (checks, by the way, were not to have been written to us but to the University of Adelaide). So that's that whole story. All I was trying to do above was use that as one more example of what we have seen where money is concerned with some churches.

 

Many blessings upon you, Helen! Thanks very much for explaining more.
And I thought I went to a fancy church because 9 years ago we got new carpet!

Karen

 

Without wishing to reiterate what has already been said, the O.T. has lots to say on the importance of Tithing. We may say that with the advancement of the N.T. we are no longer under the law but under Grace! Yes, but under grace we act in love and shouldnt that be a better motivation to give as the Lord provided!

There is much scriptural material for tithing, but I wander if there might be some wisdom in getting a visiting preacher to approach the subject rather than the pastor who, in the eyes of some, has a vested interest.
yours, Jon.