TITHING

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by hrhema, Mar 24, 2003.

  1. hrhema

    hrhema
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    Why is it that the majority of churches teach that we should pay tithes? There is no scripture in the New Testament that supports this.

    If you are going to go back into the Old Testament for this teaching how can you not go back to the teaching of the Old TEstament for other things such as the Sabbath.

    It seems hypocritical to pick and choose what you can use from the Old Testament.
     
  2. Frank

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    hrhema:
    The Bible teaches we are to give as we have ben prospered. I Cor. 16:1,2. This is to be done as a man has purposed in his heart. Jesus authorized giving as we have been prospered. The Old Law required a man give a tenth of all he had. However, this law has no authority today. Mat. 28:18-20.
     
  3. 3AngelsMom

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    I have always wondered the same thing.

    About the Churches who are SOOOOO against keeping the Sabbath.

    They stand in the pulpit and preach tithe (a Mosaic law) but REFUSE to even CONSIDER the idea that the 10 Commandments are still in effect.

    Why is that?

    Greed perhaps?

    God Bless
     
  4. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    The same can be said of instrumental music - also only found in the OT. A church that is going to require tithing or use instrumental music ought to also go ahead and bind circumcision and animal sacrifice! The same with those who teach that Christians should engage in carnal warfare. The same with those who allow divorce for reasons other than fornication. The same with those who don't believe that baptism is necessary to salvation. ALL OF THESE are Old Testamentizing the New Testament. On and on the list could go.
     
  5. 3AngelsMom

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    Let's take that one step further Sola, if we go in the OPPOSITE direction with that line of thinking.

    Who is Jesus, without the OT?

    hmmmmm
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Indeed it is. God must decide - not man.

    ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God and ALL of it is profitable for doctrine correction and reproof.

    This was spoken primarily of the OT - by NT Saints because they had at that time very little of the NT text to refer to - its primary application is to the OT text. "Scripture".

    So "yes" - playing the game of "pick and choose" with God's infallible Word - is Not wise.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    I am not saying that the Old Testament is to be disregarded or thrown away. It is profitable. HOWEVER, the commands found therein are not binding on us today. Why do I say the commands of the OT are no longer binding? Hebrews 7:12 answers this question : "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." The priesthood had to be changed in order for Jesus to be made a priest, and this change necessitated a change in the Law. This is why in 2 Cor 3:13 Paul refers to the Law of Moses as "that which is abolished." The commands transmitted by Moses in the book called The Torah are replaced by those transmitted by the apostles in the book called The New Testament.

    This is why the writer of Hebrews opens his book by saying "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son..." and then eventually proceeds to say "there is made of necessity a change also of the law" and that Christ "is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises" and "if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second" and "finding fault with them, He says:...I will make a new covenant" and of course, "in that He says, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete." (Hebrews 8:13)

    It would be just as rational to say that the command to "build an ark" which God gave to Noah is binding on us today as to say that the command to tithe found in the Law of Moses is binding on us today.

    Now, as far as the 10 Commandments still being in effect, 9 of them are for 9 of them were taught by the apostles. One of them, however, was not. Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" You can argue till you are blue in the face that "the sabbath days" are not the weekly sabbaths, but it's foolishness to do so. The phrase "the sabbath days" includes all sabbaths.

    [ March 24, 2003, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     
  8. 3AngelsMom

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    Sola,

    If I was a lost person, and I just read your post, I would ignore every word that came out of your mouth from here on out.

    There are only 9 commandments now????

    Give me a break.

    This is just more antinomian garbage clouding up the minds of sincere Christians.

    Think for yourself.

    That verse DOES NOT say, 'you can break the Sabbath Commandment now'.

    It says Do not let any one judge you in RESPECT of the Sabbath. That means, that WHEN you ARE keeping it, do not let the SCRIBES and PHARISEES judge you because you 'walked' further than a 'Sabbath Days Journey', or you gleaned corn while walking through a field.

    You are reading WAY too much of you own DESIRE into that verse.

    It just DOES NOT say that.

    God Bless
     
  9. Alcott

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    The verse in question here says "Let no one judge in... regard to a sabbath day." You keep the sabbaths, and I assure you that is fine with me. But do you post on message boards where most of the readers do not keep the OT/Pharisaic laws regarding the sabbath? Obviously-- and I think that is fine also, as long as everyone keeps the (NT) command "no one judge..." In that same verse there is also to be no judging about new moons or festivals or what we eat or drink.

    This verse says nothing about extending a "sabbath day's journey" or being allowed to glean corn while walking through a field. Using your own term, "It just DOES NOT say that."

    In regard to this "pick and choose" subtopic, should the death penalty be enacted for working on the sabbath? Should we stone a man if he gathers firewood on that day, as in Numbers 15:32-36? Or do we "pick and choose" after all?

    It is my position that we pick the New Testament and choose what it requires. It the NT requirements are repeats of the OT requirements, then we carry them out. If any requirement from the OT is not repeated in the NT, it is not required of NT Christians, and if it is not forbidden to NT Christians, we or our churces should not forbid it.

    Tithing is one principle which is not required of NT Christians. To give "as we have prospered" is ambiguous, but it seems to compare to the American income tax system-- the higher one's income, the higher (%) tax bracket. And in fact, much of OT tithing is like the income tax system, used for government administration, which obviously the churches do not participate in... therefore it cannot work the same way.

    But one thing that has always bugged me about this is the fantastic "testimonies" many people like to tell about, with the general prevalent theme of "When I started to tithe, then all my money problems were gone." Yeah, sure :rolleyes: . People are just drawing attention to themselves and how greatly spiritual they think they are when they do this. This is a form of the "prosperity gospel."
     
  10. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    There are and always have been MORE than 9 commandments! This is the problem with your doctrine - out of 613 commandments in the Law of Moses you choose 10 to keep. Why only 10? Just because you feel like it or because Ellen G. White said so or whatever other reason there may be. On the other hand those who follow what the apostles wrote will follow the 9 out of the 10 commandments which the apostles taught, the commandments to abstain from blood and things strangled which was also brought over from the OT according to Acts 15, and any other commandments that were under the OT that were brought over into the New Covenant by the apostles (by God through the apostles that is), such as Deu 22:5 which is reiterated in 1 Tim 2:9-10, and of course we can't forget Jesus' new commandment in John 13:34 and all his other new commandments in Matthew 5 "Ye have heard...But I say..." BUT only the commandments taught by the apostles and Jesus are binding.

    I have shown a scripture where the apostle Paul says that we are not bound to keep the sabbath. Can you show me a scripture where an apostle COMMANDS A PERSON TO KEEP THE SABBATH? I'll be waiting to see it! Can you even show a scripture in which Jesus commands sabbath keeping?

    Why does Paul say in 1 Corinthians 9:20 "to them that are under the law, [I became] as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law"? Paul could not say that he acted as one under the law for the purpose of evangelism if he was always under the law! Was he always under the Law of Moses? No! But he became as one under that law to convert those who were under that law. BUT he also said in verse 21 "To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law." So we see that while he was not always under Moses' Law, but only when trying to convert Jews - YET he was ALWAYS under the Law of Christ. Remember, there was a change of the priesthood and as a result the law was changed. Moses' Law is no longer binding - Christ's Law is. The Law that was given at Sinai when the mountain was on fire with the presence of God has been replaced with the Law given at Pentecost when the apostles' heads were on fire with the presence of God! The Law that God spoke from the mountain with thunderings (perhaps the languages of the time) has been replaced with the Law that was spoken by the apostles in tongues (the languages of the time)!

    [ March 25, 2003, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     
  11. 3AngelsMom

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    I'm sorry, did you think I was judging you? I apoligize. I wasn't doing anything of the sort. Just giving my opinion as it pertains to me.
    Yes, and the words 'It means' usually denotes a shift from quotation to comment, and that it JUST what it was. MY comment. I am fully aware that it doesn't say that. In the same token, it ALSO does not say ANYTHING about NOT keeping the Sabbath. Does it?
    Nope. Jesus abolished the death penalty when He showed the adulterous woman mercy 'you without sin cast the first stone'...
    I don't. If I know that it is in there, and that it is law that has NOT been fulfilled, I keep it to the best of my ability and knowledge. It is called submission.
    And what bible verse is the basis for this position?
    And that friends was the Gospel according to.....?
    There are some REALLY cheap and stingy people out there. You do know that ALL of it is God's don't you? You are only giving it BACK to Him. It isn't YOUR money to begin with.
    If I only gave 'as we have prospered', I would never give. My husband is working 2 jobs right now just to make ends meet, and one of them is delivering Pizza. After tax and gas money and food and rent and bills we are lucky if we even HAVE any money left over. WE GIVE from the FIRST fruit. Just think of what our fate would be if God had sent the left overs of His Creation to redeem us. Praise God that it is not so. He sent the BEST. His FIRST fruit. HIS ONLY begotten Son. And people want to hold back, what God gave them so they can drive a Honda instead of a Hyundai.
    I always like it when I agree with a person on at least ONE point, and here we have it. The whole 'prayer of Jabez' thing really got under my skin. How many people do you think started praying that prayer? Don't you think that if it worked that we would have run out of land by now from all the 'borders' being increased. [​IMG]

    God Bless
     
  12. 3AngelsMom

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    I'm sorry, do you LIVE with me? Do you KNOW what Commandments I keep? Hmmm? I keep more than just 10. And I need to change my handle to NO ELLEN SDA MEMBER because NOTHING that I believe is based on Ellen White's work. NOTHING. So keep your ignorant assumptions to your self. There is NO problem with a doctrine that teaches to obey God. NO PROBLEM. If I live my WHOLE life and NEVER eat another piece of bacon, I just might live to be 98 years old. However, I may get hit by a car tomorrow and not live to see my 28th birthday. So, while I am still living, I am going to do all that is in my power to obey the things that God has shown me. The 613 rules that you love to mention, are a mix of cerimonial, moral, cleansing, and sacrificial laws. SO MANY of them are fulfilled. SO MANY. Not all though. That's why it says STUDY to show yourself approved. It isn't as cut and dry as you think.
    Intersting. Who told you Jesus had authority? Who told you that He had the power to make commandments? Who told you He had the power to make disciples of men and give them authority?
    You showed no such thing! There is NOT ONE verse ANYWHERE in the Bible that says 'we are not bound to keep the Sabbath'. (which is what you just claimed)
    Hebrews 4: 9. There remaineth therefore a [sabbath] rest (sabbatismos) to the people of God.
    10. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
    11. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
    [​IMG]

    Boy, I'm nontrinitarian, and I'm not foolin' with that one. Can anyone say 'and the WORD was, and the WORD is and the WORD will be'???
    When John penned the FIRST verse of his Gospel, WHAT was the Word? The OLD TESTAMENT. That is all they had back then. The OT is PART of Jesus. So YEAH Jesus DID command us to keep the Sabbath. In like 285 places. Here is my favorite though:
    Isaiah 56

    1. Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
    2. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
    3. Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
    4. For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
    5. Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
    6. Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
    7. Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
    8. The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
    9. All ye beasts of the field, come to devour, yea, all ye beasts in the forest.
    10. His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
    11. Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
    12. Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

    Notice in v12 how the greedy dogs came to them and said TOMORROW. What day is tomorrow if you are on the Sabbath day? hmmmmm
    Ok, I only have one response to that, because it really didn't make any sense. 2 Peter 3: 14. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
    15. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
    16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
    17. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
    Yes, there was a change. The change was to the sacrificial system. Jesus was the final, last and only REAL Sacrifice for sin. THAT is what has been ended. The new Priesthood STILL requires Holy living, and obedience to the laws of God.
    Well, in that case I will see you next Sabbath at church! The Sabbath was made for man. By God. In the first week of earths existence. It wasn't even INSTITUTED by Moses. GOD took care of that too! Manna (the Bread from heaven JESUS) fell down for 6 days and at the end of the first week of their freedom THEY were given the Sabbath BY GOD. Moses' law is the sacrificial and cerimonial, feasts etc.
    Ok, I'm skippin' the tongues thing. DHK can take you up on it. But as far as the Sabbath is concerned, the Sabbath wasn't given to Israel at Sinai. They were already keeping it. God told them to keep it AS SOON as they left Egypt. So, in all actuality, the other nine shoud be ignored before you ignore the 4th. The other nine ALSO don't say REMEMBER.

    I love how that is in there.

    Don't you think that is strange that the commandment that YOU and other faithful antinomians wish wasn't part of the 10 anymore, is the ONLY ONE that God said to remember?

    I love it.

    God Bless
     
  13. Briguy

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    Frank writes: ""The Old Law required a man give a tenth of all he had. However, this law has no authority today. Mat. 28:18-20.""

    Oh My :eek: I agree with Frank!!!! - It can't be
    :D :D

    A tithe was a 10% tax, I believe someone above mentioned something about income tax as well. It was directed at Isreal and was to be done out of obligation. The NT is clear that we now give from the heart as we are lead not out of obligation. In fact we all know the verese that talks about the money given means nothing if it is given with the wrong motive.

    Anyway we are under a new covenant now and the Mosaic Law, yes the 10 commandments are no longer an issue for us. In this NC we are to love God and esteem others as higher then ourselves (i.e. be servants). What ever our talents or gifts are they are to be used to serve God and serve others. Anything else, in the broad sense, is not applicable. We will not be judged by the day of the week we worship, whether we use instruments in worship, whether we sacrifice a lamb now and then or even by how much we give, we will be judged by whether we have been washed clean by the blood of Christ. Washing that takes place by trusting, through faith, in what Jesus has done.

    In Christian Love,
    Brian
     
  14. hrhema

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    If you read the Book of Acts carefully you will discover that Paul still kept the 7th day Sabbath.

    Just like I said about the Doctrine of the TRinity, who abolished the 7th day Sabbath? It was not Paul. It was a Roman Catholic Council.
    Sunday worship was instituted by the RCC.

    My whole point about starting this post was to make a point. Those who say the law has been done away with still hold on to some of it.
     
  15. Alcott

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    I'm sorry, did you think I was judging you? I apoligize. I wasn't doing anything of the sort. Just giving my opinion as it pertains to me.

    No, at least not here. This was only citing the verse about "...let no one judge you...in regard to sabbath day."

    I am fully aware that it doesn't say that. In the same token, it ALSO does not say ANYTHING about NOT keeping the Sabbath. Does it?

    Nope. Strict neutrality. That is fully acceptable in this particular case.

    In regard to this "pick and choose" subtopic, should the death penalty be enacted for working on the sabbath?
    Nope. Jesus abolished the death penalty when He showed the adulterous woman mercy 'you without sin cast the first stone'...


    OK, the New Testament supersedes the Old Testament. That is also what I believe.

    Or do we "pick and choose" after all?
    I don't. If I know that it is in there, and that it is law that has NOT been fulfilled, I keep it to the best of my ability and knowledge. It is called submission.


    That is fine if you can consider yourself the determining agent of what 'has been fulfilled.' It does not make good sense to me that the sabbath has not been fulfilled, but the consequences for breaking it have been.

    It is my position that we pick the New Testament and choose what it requires. It the NT requirements are repeats of the OT requirements, then we carry them out.
    And what bible verse is the basis for this position?


    Not verse, but verses. A few are: Acts 15:19,20; Colossians 2:14-16; Galatians 5:3; Romans 7:6.

    If any requirement from the OT is not repeated in the NT, it is not required of NT Christians, and if it is not forbidden to NT Christians, we or our churches should not forbid it.
    And that friends was the Gospel according to.....?


    The New Testament writers. James, for example, said, "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood" (Acts 15:19,20). No sabbath; no avoidance of pork and shellfish; no circumcision... Are all these requirements in effect, or do we go by only the NT requirements?

    ]There are some REALLY cheap and stingy people out there. You do know that ALL of it is God's don't you? You are only giving it BACK to Him. It isn't YOUR money to begin with.

    Then how do I have any authority to give it to anyone? Money is a medium of exchange which we utilize for what we need.

    WE GIVE from the FIRST fruit. Just think of what our fate would be if God had sent the left overs of His Creation to redeem us. Praise God that it is not so. He sent the BEST. His FIRST fruit. HIS ONLY begotten Son.

    That's true. We need what He gave us, but He is fully capable of doing without what worldly exchange media we have.

    And people want to hold back, what God gave them so they can drive a Honda instead of a Hyundai.

    They do? For the record, a Hyundai ('97 Accent) is what I drive.

    I always like it when I agree with a person on at least ONE point, and here we have it. The whole 'prayer of Jabez' thing really got under my skin. How many people do you think started praying that prayer? Don't you think that if it worked that we would have run out of land by now from all the 'borders' being increased.

    Of course, maybe we can colonize other planets before the end comes, and that would make that prayer more feasible.

    God Bless

    And the same to you.
     
  16. DHK

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    Doctrines of Demons
    1Tim.4:1-4
    4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
    3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
    4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

    In Romans 14, Paul cautions us not to judge our brother. If one esteems one day above another don’t judge him. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind he says. He also says, “for meat destroy not the Kingdom of God.” In so many matters we have what Baptists call “soul liberty,” a distinctive that we have fought for, for generations. We have the liberty to believe the Bible in the way we think is right. We are not forced to believe any one’s particular doctrine. We have liberty. Verse three of 1Tim.4 says that forbidding to marry is a doctrine of demons. When one chooses not to marry, such as Paul did, he has the liberty to do so. But when a church teaches the doctrine that marriage is wrong, even for a segment of their congregation, then that is a doctrine of demons.
    Likewise, it says “abstaining from meats.” If I choose to be a vegetarian for my own personal reasons, that is my choice and there is nothing wrong with that. But if a church teaches that it is wrong to eat certain foods, then it is teaching a doctrine of demons. The Bible teaches liberty.

    There is soul liberty in many things. There is soul liberty in the area of tithing as well. In this case one church may decide that tithing is Scriptural and its members will agree to tithe. Another church may decide that they should give as the Lord prospers. It is up to the local church. Each church has the liberty to choose which method they want to give. If you don’t like it find another church. But don’t criticize your own church for the stand they take. There is liberty here.
    You might find the same is true in music, a matter of soul liberty (to some extent), and in the matter of Bible translations, also a matter of soul liberty. “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.”
    Rom.14 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
    DHK
     
  17. Charles33

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    DHK said:
    As DHK states clearly, if your church decides on one matter of giving, and you don't like it or maybe cannot afford it, go to antoher church somewhere else that fits what you personally think. This is the essence of soul liberty. How does it feel to be your own Holy Spirit? You are the sole authority regarding matters of faith and morals. If you FEEL it is the truth, it is the truth. Liberate your soul. Soul liberty. Confidence in what you approve of in your mind. 'YOU' are the sole authority in matters of faith and morals.
     
  18. DHK

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    You did not quote me correctly. I am not my own authority. My own opinions count for nothing. My conclusions are arrived at only be serious Bible study and prayer. The Bible is my sole authority in ALL matters of faith and practice. Please don't ever forget or misunderstand that. It is the most basic tenet of the Baptist faith. I don't run my life by my "feelings." Thus what I FEEL is of no consequence. "Thus saith the Lord," is what counts with me.

    Go back and read the entire chapter of Romans 14. It speaks of liberty. There are many issues in which a Christian has liberty. We are not talking about the fundamentals of the faith here. What kind of translation do you use? That is not a salvic issue. It is a matter of soul liberty, and you would be foolish to make an issue of it in this forum, or at least in this thread. Do a little bit more study before you enter into a discussion on the issues of soul liberty, the priesthood of the believer, and other Baptist distinctives.
    DHK
     
  19. Frank

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    hrhema:
    I do not keep the old law. The old law was not promised to all men for all times. It was a temporary law until Christ. In Gal. 3:24,25, the Bible says," Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    25  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." The law was until John. The Bible says in Mat. 11:13," For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

    The law of Moses was only a shadow of what was to come. In John 1:14, the Bible says,"  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John wrote in verse 17, "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." The law of moses was only a shadow of grace and truth. It was not capable of remitting sins. The Bible says in in Hebrews 10:1-4, "¶For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
    2  For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
    3  But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
    4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." Therfore, the old law could not remitt sin.
    The old law was not to be continued as a system of worship. In John 4:20-24,"  Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
    21  Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
    22  Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
    23  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
    24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
    The sabbath worship was replaced by the first day of the week worship. This became effective on Pentecost. The Bible says in Acts 2:1, " And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. Pentecost ws always the FIRST day of the week. The Bible says in Lev. 23:15,16, "And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
    16  Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD." The apostles assembled on the first day of the week. The Bible says in Acts 20:7, "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight." The Bible says in I Cor. 16:1,2, "ow concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
    2  Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. The first century Christians assembled on the first day of the week as per the examples of the apostles. The Bible says in Acts 2: 42,"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." Therefore, I follow the approved example of the new testament of Christ.
    The idea that the sabbath is still binding because only the ceremonial laws were done away with is simply false. Neahmiah wrote in 9:13,14, " Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
    14  And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant."
    God equated the law of Moses as a whole system. He made no distinction between commandaments and ceremonial laws as it pertains to the essential element of obedience. God expected man to adhere to all of the law, not some parts. It is this system that has been done away with. In Col. 2:14, the Bible says, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"
    Therefore, I do not keep any of the old law. It could NEVER justify. Gal. 2:11.
     
  20. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    3AngelsMom:

    At least 2 problems with your response:

    (1) You did not show that Jesus or any apostle commanded the Sabbath to be kept anywhere in the New Testament.

    (2) Hebrews 4:9-11 is speaking of something that we must labor to enter! The weekly sabbath is not something I would say "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief" about! In the context, he is obviously speaking about heaven, refering to it as the sabbath that is left for the people of God

    Notice the passage again and try to put away your pre-conceived notions and NOTE THE CONTEXT:

    (Heb 4:9-11 NKJV) There remains therefore a [Sabbath] rest for the people of God. {10} For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. {11} Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

    Will disobedience keep me from resting on the weekly sabbath? NO!!!! But it will keep me out of heaven, therefore I know which sabbath Hebrews 4 is really talking about!

    PS: The "tongues thing" that you skipped was just an illustration of the fact that Pentecost was the giving of a new law - those were some of the parallels between Pentecost at Sinai and Pentecost after Jesus' resurrection. In both law-givings God's presence was seen with fire and the law being given was spoken in tongues.

    DHK:


    This is an improper understanding of "soul liberty." Soul liberty should be understood as not binding practices not taught in the New Testament nor loosing practices taught in the New Testament. The idea that a congregation can "decide that tithing is Scriptural" without one shred of Scriptural evidence is not "soul liberty" but defiance and a "we're gonna do what we want no matter what God says" attitude.

    Also, your idea that a congregation ought to implement a practice such as tithing without one shred of Scriptural evidence and that those who disagree should just leave SMACKS IN THE FACE OF 1 Corinthians 8. This chapter on liberty plainly teaches that uneccessary things (such as meat) should be foregone if they damage the church. Surely imposing a law that a person must give 10% even though the New Testament doesn't teach this is an uneccessary thing, BUT in actuality it is much worse that uneccessary - it is purely unscriptural and in many cases nothing more than greed, and we know that the servant of God is not to be "greedy of filthy lucre." (1 Tim 3:3)

    You have basically defined "soul liberty" as a congregations right to bind unscriptural practices on it's members. By this reasoning, the commanding to abstain from meats and forbidding to marry fall under the category of "soul liberty" rather than "doctrines of demons." Ponder this flaw in your reasoning long and hard!

    hrhema:

    So what? He did not do it because it was binding on Christians but because he became as one under the law to those under the law and as a Jew to Jews so that he might win them to Christ - 1 Cor 9:20-21.

    Briguy:

    That sounds rather...wrong. Do you honestly believe that you can go around sacrificing lambs and get away with it? Isn't that denying the sufficiency of Christ's blood? Isn't that basically spitting in His face and saying that He died for nothing? I certainly approve of your use of the term "washed" - it's refreshing, but I don't see how you could say that continuing animal sacrifices is any anyway alright.

    [ March 26, 2003, 03:30 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     

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