Tithing

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by freeatlast, Jul 4, 2004.

  1. freeatlast

    freeatlast
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    Richard Wayne Garganta Box 1355 Coventry, Rhode Island 02816 [email protected]
    The Truth About Tithing - F.A.C.T. vs. F.I.C.T.I.O.N.

    "Faith-based Abrahamic Covenant Tithing vs. Fear Induced Condemnation That Is Oppressive & Negative

    A personal note

    I wrote this article because, over the years, I have seen the doctrines surrounding the issues of money and giving get considerably warped.
    The Apostles, the elders and the brethren in Jerusalem wrote the Gentiles saying, "We have heard that certain people which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised, AND KEEP THE LAW; to whom we gave NO SUCH COMMANDMENT. ..."for it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: Abstain from meats offered to idols and tasting blood and from eating the meat of animals that have been strangled and from sexual impurity. If you keep yourselves from these things, you will do well." Acts 15: 24-29
    Despite this crystal clear dialogue and MANY other scriptures stating Law keeping by Gentiles is not commanded, 2,000 years later men are still, "troubling people with words and subverting their souls." Get your Bibles, try to put your bias aside and let's see what the Bible REALLY says about this issue."


    http://members.aol.com/richinri/messages/tithing.htm

    Article is copyrighted - see above link!

    [ July 07, 2004, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: Dan Todd ]
     
  2. HankD

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    freeatlast says (if he is richard):

    free, I think you (or Richard) are stuck on the "measure" of giving for the Christian. There is no measure apart from faith. All that we have is God's.

    If ones giving is by faith and turns out to be a "tithe" or more (or even less) then it is Scriptural because the Scripture declares that the just shall live by faith.

    In fact, if one were to reason in their heart to give 10% (or 5% or 50%) by faith how is that unscriptural?

    The just shall live by faith is the NT measure of giving.

    This is all you really needed to say IMO.

    What do we owe God (to be sure it's a debt of love)?

    Luke 18
    22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.


    HankD

    [ July 04, 2004, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  3. freeatlast

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    free, I think you (or Richard) are stuck on the "measure" of giving for the Christian. There is no measure apart from faith. All that we have is God's.


    If ones giving is by faith and turns out to be a "tithe" or more (or even less) then it is Scriptural because the Scripture declares that the just shall live by faith.

    In fact, if one were to reason in their heart to give 10% (or 5% or 50%) by faith how is that unscriptural?

    The just shall live by faith is the NT measure of giving.

    This is all you really needed to say IMO.

    What do we owe God (to be sure it's a debt of love)?

    Luke 18
    22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.


    HankD
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hank,
    By your response I assume you did not read the article or if you did you totally ignored what was said. Your statement about tithing by faith is a false one. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God and there is no word about tithing in the new testament for the church so anyone who gives under the presumption of the tithe and claims that they are giving by faith is deceived at best.
    The law on tithing cannot apply to believers because the Levites & priests were not required to tithe. The law of tithing only applied to those who were not priests. Yet of believers it is said: Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father;
    So the next time someone asks you for your tithe, tell him that you are a priest and demand it off him.
     
  4. HankD

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    I read the article and then said that you only needed to say that the just shall live by faith.

    You didn't understand what I said or you didn't read everything I said.

    I said if what I gives "turns out to be a "tithe" 10% and I gave it by faith what have I done in an unscriptural manner? You didn't answer this question but made an oblique innuendo that I was deceived.

    Where did I say that anyone told me to give a tithe?
    Where did I say it was a law for the NT believer?

    Why complicate so simple a precept?

    The just shall live by faith. If I give 5, or 10 or 50% and/or use a percentage as a guide for whatever I give, how it is unscriptural if I give it by faith?

    Please show me a NT Scripture which specifically forbids an amount or a percentage.

    You say that there is nothing about tithing in the NT for the believer. I agree. Therefore, I conclude that God doesn't care what I give as long as it is by faith and faith has no boundaries when it comes to giving.

    The OT tithes were a tax out of the Law of Moses for a temporary blessing. We live by faith of eternal life through Jesus Christ.

    HankD
     
  5. freeatlast

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    Like I said you must not have read the article, or you just did not understand it. There is no such thing as a tithe for the church and that is the point. No matter how one gives. So that being said even if a person gives 10% they still are not tithing and they can never do it by faith since the New Testament does nto call for a tithe.
     
  6. SpiritualMadMan

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    NO, Free, I think Hank understands your post pretty accurately...

    And, I generally agree with him...

    Although I was once as I believe you are now... Any mention of the word "Tithe" meant (automatically) "LAW" and you can not be under Grace if you are under Law...

    For me it was incredibly cut and dried... *Any* mention of tithing was, as far as I was concerned heresy trying to bring God's Freed People back under the law...

    However, The Curse of the Law is done away with in Christ... So, I have to ask... Do the Blessing Remain? [​IMG] It is my position that the Blessing Remain...

    If we use circumcision as an example, is Paul's chief complaint with the surgical removal of the foreskin its use as a ceremonial act to comply with the law to become 'righteous' in God's eyes. (Under the law)... Or, the actual mechanical procedure.

    The issue or heart intent *is* important...

    The issue of heart purpose is important...

    If *anyone* tithes as an act of law to gain God's Righteousness they are not under Grace but under Law...

    But, if a person gives a tenth of anything, out of Love for God, or a seen need... Knowing that His acceptance before God is by the shed Blood of Jesus alone, not of works lest any man should boast... Then I do not find any logical reason to condemn that practice...

    The practice of pouring guilt and condemnation on parishioners, though, I do condemn...

    Unfortunately, from what some absolutist preach about tithing being "Law"... If I were to 'accidentally' find myself tithing... I would have lost my salvation!!!!

    The real issue is why God's People have such a big issue with Cheerfully Giving to God's work for the support of the ministry? Whether by tithing or otherwise...

    I just don't understand people who simply have to have the best car, the best TV, the best home, and them get bent out of shape when the church sound system goes up in smoke and a new one is required...

    Or, the pastor who has been faithful for 20 years needs an operation but didn't have adequate health insurance and needs the help of his congregation...

    It's amazing how many non Word of Faithers start expecting their pastor to Confess Healing at a time like that! :D

    Lest you destroy the faith of some... Remember for some, tithing *is* an act of faith...
     
  7. freeatlast

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    If God wanted the tithe He would have said so when He had the letter written. The tithe is legalism in its finest. When i run into anyone who supports the thith I am always struck with laughter because they do not even practice the tithe themselves. They call for it and do not do it. The tithe was not a simple 10% it was much more involved. The church is not under it. We are under a system of giving from the heart. The tithe had nothing to do with that, it was total law.
     
  8. HankD

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    Just what I said.

    Ironic, you have become an anti-tithe "legalist".

    HankD
     
  9. freeatlast

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    Just what I said.

    Ironic, you have become an anti-tithe "legalist".

    HankD
    </font>[/QUOTE]:rolleyes: [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  10. HankD

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    I'm glad to see you have a sense of humor freeatlast.

    [​IMG]

    HankD
     
  11. BobRyan

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    And the "Source" and "giver" of that supposedly - "other gospel" active before the cross??? God??? Do you blame your fiction on God?

    Lets see how/if Paul trashed the Word of God...

    Apparently HE had high regard for scripture even though HIS scripture was just the OT at that time. (Romans is the FIRST NT book to be written)

    I think I will stick with the ONE and ONLY Gospel Gal 1:6-11 in all of time. The ONE that worked for the Heb 11 saints of the OT and the only ONE that still exists today.

    Which means - tithing as GOD gave it - is still in.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. freeatlast

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    And the "Source" and "giver" of that supposedly - "other gospel" active before the cross??? God??? Do you blame your fiction on God?

    Lets see how/if Paul trashed the Word of God...

    Apparently HE had high regard for scripture even though HIS scripture was just the OT at that time. (Romans is the FIRST NT book to be written)

    I think I will stick with the ONE and ONLY Gospel Gal 1:6-11 in all of time. The ONE that worked for the Heb 11 saints of the OT and the only ONE that still exists today.

    Which means - tithing as GOD gave it - is still in.

    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]Then I hope you give veggies and meat and if not redeem the tithe with a 20% penality or you are breaking the law.
     
  13. atestring

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    I don't care if tithing is a law or an option . I just live to worship God by giving.
     
  14. Bro Tony

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    I wonder if anyone can give one verse written directly to the New Testament Church that teaches that the Christian Church is to tithe?

    Remember you cannot use the Old Testament, you cannot even use the Gospels. I am talking about one verse after the birth of the Church that teaches that New Testament believers are to practice the tithe.

    Not trying to be argumentative, just wondering if it is there.

    Bro Tony
     
  15. Dan Todd

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    Bro Tony - You'll not find such a verse!

    But you will find at least one verse that precedes the law of Moses mentioning tithing!

    Genesis 14:18-20, "And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all."

    Although tithing (10%) is not specifically mentioned in the post gospel Scriptures - it certainly is a good place for church age believers to begin when considering how much to give back to the Lord!
     
  16. Bro Tony

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    Dan,

    I agree completely with your statement. The principle is great, and it is a great place to start. I am just concerned with the legalist who say that the Church is commanded the way that Old Testament believers were. They teach and preach this without specific Scriptural instruction. We all should give as the New Testament Epistles instruct.

    Bro Tony
     
  17. SpiritualMadMan

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    BobRyan,

    I'd be willing to go with the 'way God gave it'. But, that is decidedly not how it is taught today in most churches...

    The tithe on the flocks was on every tenth animal that passed under the shepherds staff...

    Implied is, is that if you had only nine animals you ended up paying no tithe on your flock...

    Also implied is that if you started with 100 animals and several were killed by predators on the way to the accounting they weren't counted...

    Same thing with the tithe on fruits and vegetables...

    What remained in the field for the gleaners wasn't counted...

    What hail, drought or flood destroyed was counted...

    What fell off the wagon in route didn't count...

    The only thing that counted was what survived to the accounting...

    Acceptable losses for both flocks and 'veggies' was what was necessarily consumed to preserve life...

    That equates to a certain amount of Grace contained in the law for people on hard times or the poor.

    How different is that from the teaching today in that 10 percent of **everything** that passes through your hands from the Gross before taxes, medical, and retirement *must* be tithed...

    The lunacy is that these legalists expect a person to tithe twice on money invested for retirement not just the interest. (Once when they get paid and once when they draw it out...)

    The specific tithe in Malachi 3:18 is, according to many writers, directly concerned with the welfare tithe. A tithe specifically taken to support the fatherless, the widows and the aliens...

    Is that a ministry of your church that teaches tithing? If not... You have no legal exegetical right to use Malachi 3:18 to brow-beat your parishioners...

    Are all persons working in a leadership position paid properly for their work? Oops! Another hit... Because, a specific sub-function of the tithe was to 'pay' the Priests and provide for their needs...

    Does your church ensure that your ministers have a retirement package of some sort? If not... Yet another hit because the tithe was used to ensure that even retired priests were taken care of until they died off...

    You see, it is easy to spout the edict that we need to tithe just like God put it forth...

    But, almost none (I know of none) of the churches advocating a legalistic mode of tithing practice it in accordance with God's Official Plan...

    If leadership isn't doing it right... How dare they condemn 'mere' laity?

    The church has abdicated it's role in caring for the fatherless, widows, and the alien leaving the government to do it for us without any Spiritual Care or Overtones...

    That money is now properly paid to the state instead of the church in the form of higher taxation...
     
  18. HisMercy

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    So what about the "tithe" that doesn't pertain to the Levites and priests? What about Revelation 1:6?
     
  19. Johnv

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    My $.02. If you're not able to live on 80% of your income, you're living beyond your means.
     
  20. SpiritualMadMan

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    If *we* are the Kings and Priests...

    Then 'The Tithe' would go to us... Equally and Individually. [​IMG]

    Oh, but, John isn't talking about the church here, is he?. He's got to be writing strictly to the leadership, right?

    Are we 'Children' of the King?

    Or, are we strangers?

    Oh, that's right, this isn't about tithes, or collections.... How foolish of me.... It's about the involuntary taking of tribute, custom, or taxes!

    Churches would never *take* something involuntarily, would they?
     

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