Titus 2.11

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, Apr 28, 2003.

  1. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Brethren,

    It has been expressed on another thread that Titus 2.11 be investigated. Here I open a thread for that particular purpose. I fully intend to post on this passage using any passages in Scripture which pertain, any commentators you would wish to bring to bear on the topics found therein, any word studies, etc. I also particularly desire that we stay within the bounds of this passage and the topics as found therein.

    I am not interested in establishing a concensus in defining any particular words or phrases, we can hash this out in our discussions. I do have the desire that we engage in productive discussion and I promise to you that I will guard myself against the tendency to meander through various space and time continuums and will submit myself to any who venture this way to engage in such discussion.

    If what I have written is acceptable to the moderators and to those who would participate let's begin to discuss this scripture, shall we?

    Titus 2.11
    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    The youngest apostle, the Apostle John, sets the tone of the Gospel by telling us that God sent John the Baptist before the people to witness to the reality of Jesus Who is the Light of the World. [John 1:7]

    Paul in writing to Titus agrees with the Apostle John that He came with more than an abundance of grace which He offers to every lost soul. When we witness and preach salvation will 'appear to all men.' [2:ll] The majority will see and understand the Gospel of salvation but they will not turn to Christ because of an inner rebellion toward the Lord. There are as many reasons why people end up in Hell, as there are multiple billions of people on this earth. John's theology dove-tails with the Apostle Paul's penned views, under Divine inspiration, where he says in John 1:7 that God desires ' . . . that all men through Him {Christ} might believe.'

    How does God 'light every person coming into the world?' [John 1:9] I don't think He categorically tells us. We do, however, know that He has given us an intellect, a will to choose, and a conscience that keeps on reminding the sinner that there is the Being, God. The Gospel from God points to the fact that we all need Christ; and He says in John 1:12 that if we receive Christ we will be made into the sons and daughters of God. [I John 3:2]

    From these texts we know that God did not come to earth selecting only certain people for His everlasting Kingdom. This view would make God a Divine Person who was unjust and also One who gives His love only to previously chosen people. Such limiting of His love would make that love much, much less than unbounded caring of His lost race of human beings.
    :cool:
     
  3. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks Brother Ray,

    I will post a reply tomorrow evening.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  4. Yelsew

    Yelsew
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

     
  5. aa0310

    aa0310
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2003
    Messages:
    99
    Likes Received:
    0
    The literal English from the Greek reads thus:

    "For appeared the grace of God, which brings salvation for all men"

    Likewise, 1 Timothy 2:4 "Who all men wishes to be saved, and to the knowledge of the truth to come". Paul then goes on to say that Jesus Christ is the Mediator between "God and men", no doubt referring to the "all men" he just mentioned in verse 4. If Christ be the Mediator between God and all men, for what purpost is this? When God's grace is said to bring salvation to all men, - it cannot be understood as do the Calvinstic commentators, who forever seem to "twist" the simple word of God to say things that it never does say - , where they see "all men" as referring to "all kinds" Scripture speaks of the death of Christ breaking down the partition which divided Jews and Gentiles into two different classes, and making "one man", so to say that here Paul again causes a separation of "classes", is to misunderstand his language elsewhere. By "all men" he claerly means "the sum total of the human race"
     
  6. Yelsew

    Yelsew
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    2 Tim 2:4 is not a stand alone verse. It must be accompanied with the context'
     
  7. aa0310

    aa0310
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2003
    Messages:
    99
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is what Adam Clarke has to say on Titus 2:11 in his commentary:

    "Verse 11. The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men] Literally translated, the words stand thus: For the
    grace of God, that which saves, hath shone forth upon all men. Or, as it is expressed in the margin
    of our authorized version: The grace of God, that bringeth salvation to all men, hath appeared. As
    God's grace signifies God's favour, any benefit received from him may be termed God's grace. In
    this place, and in #Col 1:6, the Gospel, which points out God's infinite mercy to the world, is termed
    the grace of God; for it is not only a favour of infinite worth in itself, but it announces that greatest
    gift of God to man, the incarnation and atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Now it cannot be said,
    except in a very refined and spiritual sense, that this Gospel had then appeared to all men; but it may
    be well said that it bringeth salvation to all men; this is its design; and it was to taste death for every
    man that its author came into the world. There is a beauty and energy in the word epephanĂȘ, hath
    shined out, that is rarely noted; it seems to be a metaphor taken from the sun. As by his rising in the
    east and shining out, he enlightens, successively, the whole world; so the Lord Jesus, who is called
    the Sun of righteousness, #Mal 4:2, arises on the whole human race with healing in his wings. And
    as the light and heat of the sun are denied to no nation nor individual, so the grace of the Lord Jesus,
    this also shines out upon all; and God designs that all mankind shall be as equally benefited by it in
    reference to their souls, as they are in respect to their bodies by the sun that shines in the firmament
    of heaven. But as all the parts of the earth are not immediately illuminated, but come into the solar
    light successively, not only in consequence of the earth's diurnal revolution round its own axis, but
    in consequence of its annual revolution round its whole orbit; so this Sun of righteousness, who has
    shined out, is bringing every part of the habitable globe into his Divine light; that light is shining
    more and more to the perfect day; so that gradually and successively he is enlightening every nation,
    and every man; and, when his great year is filled up, every nation of the earth shall be brought into
    the light and heat of this unspotted, uneclipsed, and eternal Sun of righteousness and truth.
    Wherever the Gospel comes, it brings salvation-it offers deliverance from all sin to every soul that
    hears or reads it. As freely as the sun dispenses his genial influences to every inhabitant of the earth,
    so freely does Jesus Christ dispense the merits and blessings of his passion and death to every soul
    of man. From the influences of this spiritual Sun no soul is reprobated any more than from the
    influences of the natural sun. In both cases, only those who wilfully shut their eyes, and hide
    themselves in darkness, are deprived of the gracious benefit. It is no objection to this view of the
    subject, that whole nations have not yet received the Divine light. When the earth and the sun were
    created, every part of the globe did not come immediately into the light; to effect this purpose fully
    there must be a complete revolution, as has been marked above, and this could not be effected till
    the earth had not only revolved on its own axis, but passed successively through all the signs of the
    zodiac. When its year was completed, and not till then, every part had its due proportion of light and
    heat. God may, in his infinite wisdom, have determined the times and the seasons for the full
    manifestation of the Gospel to the nations of the world, as he has done in reference to the solar light;
    and when the Jews are brought in with the fulness of the Gentiles, then, and not till then, can we say
    that the grand revolution of the important YEAR of the Sun of righteousness is completed."
     
  8. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    The closest we can get to the absolute truth is the Greek. I do quote while preaching from the KJV. I memorized Scripture from the KJV. Two other translations confirm the meaning for us from God. The New Century Version says about Titus 2:11 'That is the way we should live, because God's grace that can save everyone has come.' The New International Version offers us this explanation. 'For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.'

    Since all of the Word of God is in agreement Paul in writing to Timothy said in chapter two verse four, 'Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.' And then, in verse six, 'Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.' The New Century Version says, 'This is good, and it pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to know the truth . . . . He gave Himself as a payment to free all people.' The Internation Version summarizes its view by saying, 'This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth . . . . Who gave Himself as a ransom for all men.'

    The Greek New Testament is speaking of I Timothy 2:4 says, ' . . . Who wishes {theli} from the root word, {etheleo} all men to be saved . . . ' An interchangeable word can also be 'delights' 'desires' or 'intends'.

    In defense of God's words we could say 'Who delights that all men might be saved, Who desires that all men might be saved, or Who intended that all men might be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.'

    Dr. Paul Enns in his book, "The Moody Handbook of Theology says on page 327 this statement. 'The word all, or an equivalent term, is used to denote everyone. Christ died for the ungodly--everyone is ungodly (Romans 5:6); Christ died for all, suggesting everyone [II Cor. 5:14-15; I Tim. 2:6; 4:10; Titus 2:11; Heb. 2:9; II Peter 3:9]

    Dr. P. Enns, earned a B.R.E., Winnipeg Bible College; Th. M., and Th.D. from Dallas Theological Seminary. He has taught at Northwestern College in Minneapolis, and at both Dallas and Talbot Theological Seminaries. :cool:

    Ray Berrian
     
  9. Harald

    Harald
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2001
    Messages:
    578
    Likes Received:
    0
    Titus 2:11 literally, Greek word order, according to Textus Receptus:

    It was made manifest for the grace of the God the saving to all men

    In other words:

    "For the saving grace of God was made manifest to all men"

    Compare with YLT:


    For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men,


    It cannot get much more literal.

    My take is that the word "pasin" (dative of pas, #3956 according to Strong's numbering) - "all", here is to be understood in the sense of "all kinds of". Otherwise this word of Paul contradicts other Scripture, and the word of God has no internal contradictions. The testimony of the whole counsel of God's word concerning soteriology is that God the Lord has saved all kinds and classes of men down through the centuries. His saving grace in Christ Jesus has accomplished this. His saving grace has not been manifested to all men without exception, nor will it be thus manifested. Verse 11 cannot be separated from v. 12 and the surrounding context. The saving grace under consideration is a teaching grace, cp. John 6:45. This saving grace was not, for example, manifested to the homosexuals of Sodom and Gomorrah, thus it was not manifested to all men without exception, as some would have it.


    Harald
     
  10. Harald

    Harald
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2001
    Messages:
    578
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ray Berrian. I think it is derogatory of God to say that He "wishes". God does not wish. He wills, is better when it comes to God.


    Harald
     
  11. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    BTW, Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed because of homosexuality. Jesus said so.
     
  12. aa0310

    aa0310
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2003
    Messages:
    99
    Likes Received:
    0
    So you think that homosexuals are greater sinners than the rest of us? Though I hate the homosexual lifestyle, and condemn it, yet I cannot hate the people, for they too are created in the image of God! Christ came to call sinners to Himself for salvation, and that includes ALL SINNERS. Remember that one can commit adultery in their mind, without the actual act! Let us not try to think that we are any "better" or "holier" than other sinners, for it is the grace of God that has saved us, and NOTHING that we have done. I fear that one of the greatest tragedies with the Church today, is that it very much lacks compassion! Let us try some humility!
     
  13. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Let's try to stay on topic here folks ...

    In reference to Ray's quotation of Enns, let's give some other quotes that Ray omitted from p. 326:

    What Enns is doing is not supporting a view, but rather give the arguments for the various views. He does not clearly take a position. Ray's citation of Enns needs to reflect this in the interest of academic integrity so Enns is not saddled with a position he may not hold.

    Interestingly enough, Enns defends many of the things that Ray says don't exist, like the effectual call, etc. If Ray studied Enns closely, he would find that we calvinists are not outside the mainstream but rather have loads of exegetical support for what we believe.

    Enns is a good resource book for those who wish to see the various sides of discussions. He usually does not take a side, at least in the parts that I have read. If everyone here had a copy of this book, these discussions might go a lot smoother because you wouldn't have so many people denying the obvious and questioning the theological support for things.

    [ April 30, 2003, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  14. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    The problem with these passages is that there is the argument that somehow Christ dying for the sheep, the church and the elect, means that Christ died ONLY for the sheep, the church, and the elect. This is not even intimated from the passages that are shown.

    This is why there is no contradiction between these passages and the blatantly obvious ones which state that Christ died for all.
     
  15. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Looking at these verses, why would it not be intimated?
     
  16. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Scott,

    My main point was to point out that Ray was misrepresenting Enns by making him out as believing something that it is not clear he believes. Enns was stating some of hte support for limited atonement.

    The questions your second paragraph raises need to be answered:
    1. IF Christ died "for" the sheep so taht they are saved, how did he die "For" others in the same way? That is a problem. Many would argue, with good reason, that not only is it intimated; it is explicitly taught. Your precommitments prevent you from seeing their point but that does not undermine or lessen the strenght of their arguments.
    2. Why do you read into the text what it does not say? The verses that say he died for all, correspond perfectly in our system. There is no contradiction for us who understand what we believe.

    HOwever, my point was not to enter this discussion but rather to say that Ray was not entirely straightforward about what Enns was saying.
     
  17. Harald

    Harald
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2001
    Messages:
    578
    Likes Received:
    0
    aa0310. The question was not about "better" or "worse" sinners. I just gave an example of a clearly provable case where the saving grace of God was not manifested towards men. This means the word "all" in the verse under consideration cannot mean all without exception. I could just as well have given Judas Iskariot as example, or Korah and Dathan, etc. etc.

    By the way, do you know what humility is according to the Bible?


    Harald
     
  18. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Webster's enters 'appear' as an intransitive verb; "appeared" is past tense of this verb. Being intransitive means this word does not take an object.

    Roget's Thesarus enters the synonyms for 'appear' as

    v. make manifest, show, display, reveal, disclose, open, exhibit, evince, evidence, demonstrate, declare, be plain, come to light , materialize; indicate, point out.

    From memory, I believe Strong adopts the terms I have placed in bold; where in here do we have a warrant to say that all men are made able to 'choose' to be saved? More later.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  19. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pastor Larry,

    I noticed that you have not dealt with any of my two posts as related to Titus 2:11. You are playing along the shoreline rather than getting out in the deep where you surely would drown.

    Dallas Seminary, I understand, has a strict policy that you have to sign before graduating from their seminary, indicating that you agree with their doctrine. Since Dr. Enns taught at Dallas I have serious doubts that he believes in "Particular Atonement." I believe Westminster Theological Seminary teaches this because of a Five Point Calvinistic/Presbyterian bias. There is only a remote possibility that Dr. Enns would believe in the Achilles' heal of "Limited Atonement."

    Where is your intellectual defense of so weak a theological doctrine?
     
  20. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Harald,

    God is not the domineering Divine despot that you apparently believe Him to be. The Lord wished and desired to reenter the backslidden church of Laodicea. He knocked at the door of the church He did not make a forced entry back into their spiritual life. There is no overpowering sovereignty in Revelation 3:20.

    By the same measure Christ welcomes all to receive His grace, [John 3:16] even though He knows that not all will receive His grace by personally receiving Christ into their lives. [John 3:18]

    Harald, please select the word of your choice. {delights, desires} 'Who delights that all men would be saved . . . ' or 'Who desires that all men (people) would be saved.' Perhaps you can find a better word that fits your theological need.
     

Share This Page

Loading...