TNIV : Pro and Con

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Rippon, Feb 11, 2006.

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  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    I started this thread because we were going off-topic on the Underrated versions thread .

    So , DeclareHim and others -- feel free to have at it . Start listing some negatve things about particular verses in this version . Declarehim was honest to admit that he does not own TNIV ( Today's New international Version ) . Anyone posting should acknowledge the same if that is the case .

    Please , let's just keep it on-target with your objections to the renderings of particular verses . Anything else will be out-of-bounds . I suppose it would be too much to ask you not to simply copy mountains of material from the anti-TNIV websites . I want the posts to be more specific and to consist of your own ideas -- not Grudem sound-alikes . Besides posts that are just lengthy rehashes really aren't that good . Let's deal in more bite-size portions , shall we ?

    So we can begin with cons . If anyone has a voice of sympathy for TNIV , that would also be welcomed .
     
  2. DeclareHim

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    Matthew 18:15-21
    Do we really think women are so stupid they can't figure out that they apply here as well? There is no Greek support for adding 'sister' in the above passage. Also besides the gender nuetral language the NIV's inclusion of 'against you' is the correct rendering.
     
  3. DeclareHim

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    1 Thessalonians 4:1-4
    Again there is no Greek or original language support for the above gender inclusiveness. "adelphos" in the Greek here is singular and the TNIV tries to make it plural. God said don't change His Word. Do you think he meant it?
     
  4. DeclareHim

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    As I posted above the TNIV is a decent translation but to claim it belongs in the top ten when it has bowed to the Women's Right Movement is wrong. Women are not stupid and the Holy Bible does not need to be changed just because a few feminist out there somewhere didn't think the Bible was ever speaking to them. There is also the fact they lied about working on it right up until they released a preview version of the NT. How do you deal with that the people responsible for it are lying about it. Maybe they should read God's Word instead of trying to cash in on another Bible with the name of the NIV stuck on it.
     
  5. Keith M

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    I agree that when there is no manuscript evidence for making a change in the text that no change should be made. Of course when the Bible says "brother" it is not excluding women. Women as Christians are included, too. But changing the Bible because someone doesn't like the way it reads is not only inexcusable, it is "adding to" Scripture.
     
  6. StefanM

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    In 1 Thess 4, it is plural--adelphoi.

    I'm on board for a resistance to changing singular to plural, but translating adelphoi as "brothers and sisters" isn't a misrepresentation of its meaning.
     
  7. Boanerges

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    More junque ideas, so someone can copyright a new version and peddle it to the masses for $$$.I wonder if the scribes, who faithfully preserved the MSS ever got any royalties? This is the same as people taking the KJV, updating it to modern English, and then copyrighting it.

    Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
     
  8. Gold Dragon

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    Some instances where the KJV changes a gender specific to a gender neutral. There are many others.

    LITV = Jay Green's Literal Translation

    Deut 32:5
    LITV: They have corrupted themselves; they are not His sons; it is their blemish; they are a crooked and perverse generation.
    KJV: They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

    Matt 5:9
    LITV: Blessed are the peacemakers! For they shall be called sons of God.
    KJV: Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

    An instance where singular pronouns in the original languages are changed to plural ones in the KJV.

    Num 22:11
    LITV : saying , Behold, a people has come out of Egypt which covers the eye of the earth. Now come, curse them for me; perhaps I will be able to overcome it and drive it out.
    KJV : Behold, there is a people come out of Egypt, which covereth the face of the earth: come now, curse me them; peradventure I shall be able to overcome them, and drive them out.
     
  9. DeclareHim

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    Could someone explain to me why we need gender neutral language Bibles? Are there really people out there that aren't smart enough to realize that they are included even though the text doesn't mention it? BTW I don't condone any version changing the original language intent. The KJV has errors just like the TNIV and ESV,HCSB etc.
     
  10. StefanM

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    Yes, unfortunately, there are.
     
  11. Gold Dragon

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    I would say because there is no such thing as a non-gender neutral language Bible. All English translations have some level of gender neutrality in their translation philosophy.
     
  12. DeclareHim

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    I understand why some translations use it. I just don't know why we have to go through the Bible and make everything possible gender neutral.
     
  13. DesiderioDomini

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    it has nothing to do with the bible, and everything to do with politics.

    Its asinine.
     
  14. Rippon

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    Hey ! Some of you strayed from my directions . And some of you have to watch your language . I'm going to have to get the soap out . Your case , whatever it may be , will not be advanced by the use of intemperate language . Most translations warn about that kind of behavior , especially in Proverbs and James .

    I don't have much time here . Thanks to those of you who had some constructive things to say . And that does not nean saying only complimentary things about TNIV .

    As I said , my time is limited . I will try and get back to answer your questions in a day or two .

    Meanwhile , these are some phrases from the NASBU . In each pair the Old Testament is cited first and the New Testament passage that quotes it below .

    2 Sam. 7:14 -- ... he will be a son to Me.
    2 Cor. 6:18 ---... and you shall be sons and daughters to me.


    Is. 52:7 --- ... the feet of him who brings good news
    Ro. 10:15 --... the feet of those who bring good news


    Ps. 36:1 --- There is no fear of God before his eyes
    Ro. 3:18 --- There is no fear of God before their eyes


    Ps. 32:1 -- How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven
    Ro. 4;7 --- Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven
     
  15. Keith M

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    In the Numbers passage above "a people" refers to a group, and "them" is a better translation than "it." I find it odd that Green got it right in part of the verse but botched it in part of the verse.

    In Deuteronomy 32:5 the Hebrew word in question is ben which, according to Strong's, can be translated as either son (masculine) or children (covering both masculine and feminine).

    In Matthew 5:9 the Greek word in question is hulos, a masculine noun that means "son." Green's translation is more accurate than the KJV translation in this instance.
     
  16. Gold Dragon

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    You see politics. I see attempts at translation accuracy in the receptor language.
     
  17. DeclareHim

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    If it's needed to clarify fine but the TNIV takes everything and makes it gener neutral. I just don't see the need. In some cases in the NT when Paul opens a letter greeting the church I have no problem with something like "fellow christians" or something to that effect. What makes me believe the TNIV is more political as well is the fact that it translates 'brothers and sisters' it's like it has to add women in or else.
     
  18. Rippon

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    I find it interesting and inconsistent that men like Grudem castigate TNIV for the numerous places it uses " brothers and sisters " yet just look at the footnotes of the ESV . In the text of the ESV it never uses brothers and sisters , but in the footnotes it shows it much of the time . Just cast a gaze at the footnotes for the book of Romans at : 1:13 ; 7:1,4 ; 8:12,29 ; 9:3 ; 10:1 ; 12:1 ; 15:14,30 ; 16:14,17 . They say "or brothers and sisters " . An extended explanation is at 1:13 . " Or brothers and sisters . The plural Greek word adelphoi ( translated 'brothers ' ) refers to siblings ina family . In New Testament usage , depending on the context , adelphoi may refer to both men and women who are siblings ( brothers and sisters ) in God's family , the church . "

    Other examples are in the book of James . See 1:2 ,16, 19 ; 2:1,5,14 ; 3:10,12 ; 4:11 ; 5:7,9,10,12,19 .

    That just for two books . I could go on , but you get the point .
     
  19. DeadMan

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    I'm assuming this question is rhetorical. Sad, isn't it?
     
  20. Gold Dragon

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    I agree that it is a better translation. My point is that changing a singular to a plural is not always the wrong translation choice.

    I agree that children is a valid translation. But ben is a masculine word in the original hebrew that can be correctly translated to a gender neutral term, like many of the choices done by the TNIV.

    The LITV may be more word accurate but not necessarily more thought accurate. If being word accurate leads to misunderstanding, then it isn't more accurate. The LITV is much more word accurate that many other english translations. I wouldn't say it is a very accurate translation though.
     
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