To avoid a thread derailment ...

Discussion in 'News / Current Events' started by thisnumbersdisconnected, Sep 3, 2013.

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  1. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
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    Crabby claimed on another thread (which wasn't about the economy) that the "Democrats have 'pulled the economy out of the ditch' " which is, of course, so much horse hockey and hogwash. I've moved my comments on that ridiculous response to this new thread to avoid further derailing the discussion.

    Amazing. You and this nonsense website actually think the economy has recovered?? Where on God's green earth is there evidence for this claim? Let's take a look at the facts:

    1. Annual US GDP growth, adjusted for inflation, has averaged an anemic 3% for the last five years -- through June of this year -- versus 5.1% during the same span after the severe 1981–82 recession (the Reagan years, should I need to remind you). Average growth per year is an amazingly lousy 0.6%.

    2. The economy has yet to return to anywhere near its pre–Great Recession growth trend. If it had, the economy would be $1 trillion bigger today.

    3. This recovery has seen the weakest increase in real disposable income of any of the seven most recent recoveries, according to ITG Market Research.

    4. The average US household has recovered a mere 45% of the wealth lost during the Great Recession, according to the St. Louis Fed.

    5. The economy has 2 million fewer private-sector jobs than it did at the January 2008 peak, and of the 922,000 people who have found jobs since July a year ago, an astounding 70% of them are part-time, meaning they have chosen to be merely underemployed as opposed to unemployed.

    6. If average monthly job gains remain close to the last twelve months’ average of 180,000, then private-sector payrolls will hit an all-time high in just under one year. But even then, job levels will still be far below where they would be if the trend from 1990 through 2007 had continued, a shortfall equaling nearly 12 million missing workers.

    7. If not for a collapse in the labor-force participation rate — mostly due to weak labor demand rather than demographics, according to Goldman-Sachs — the unemployment rate would be at least 9%, not 7.5%.

    8. The broader U-6 jobless rate, which includes some discouraged workers and part-timers who would prefer full-time gigs — is just shy of 14% vs. 8% pre-recession.

    9. There are 4.4 million Americans — a whopping 37% of the total unemployed population — who’ve been unemployed for 27 weeks or longer. This group, given skill erosion and hiring bias, could become a large permanent pool of jobless Americans.

    GDP actually reflects the poor state of the economy. Despite what liberals want you to believe, companies want to hire workers. But they hire workers only when they think they’ll make more money from the resulting production than they will spend on the increased work force. In a way the GDP numbers epitomizes Obama’s economic philosophy: He’s managed to squeeze a whole year’s worth of economic activity into five years and counting.

    There are over million Californians who today remain unemployed, many of whom are still jobless after using up 99 weeks of unemployment benefits made available by the state and federal government according to an article by the San Diego Union Tribune.

    This is the Democrats’ economy. It’s everything they asked for.

    They got nationalized healthcare, they got the auto bailout, they got the pork barrel spending we call stimulus. They also got the opportunity to put a million electric vehicles on the road.

    They invested in solar, in unions, in government. And still, they’ve produced the worst recovery ever.

    Strike that.

    It’s because they got nationalized healthcare, and they got the auto bailout, and they got the pork barrel spending we call stimulus; plus they got the opportunity to put a million electric vehicles on the road; AND because they invested in solar, in unions and in government that we have the worst recovery ever.

    From 1932 to 1937, during the “Great Depression” the GDP of the United States grew 25 percent or at an annual average rate or 5 percent per annum. Yet the average government spending was about 15 percent of GDP during that period. Today, government spending is nearly 40 percent of GDP and we are getting about 1/10th of the return that our grandfathers enjoyed.

    There’s a connection between unemployment and GDP.

    It’s starts with bad investment decisions.

    Imagine that: Politicians making bad investment decisions.

    The best decision that we can make as a counter is getting politicians to make no investment decisions at all. Let the people who built American business -- the ones Obama claims "didn't build that" -- tell Washington how to grow the economy.

    But first, get rid of the socialists. They're the ones making the bad decisions, and Obama is their leader.
     
  2. Revmitchell

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    Democrats have gotten so used to revising history they no longer wait for some time to pass by before they do it anymore.
     
  3. saturneptune

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    While I agree that the Democrats have not pulled the economy out from the brink of disaster, your post is structured along the false belief that there is a gap between the way modern day Democrats and modern day Republicans run the government and the economy. The gap exists between the two parties as a unified entity on one hand and the Constitution on the other.

    For example, in late 2008, the economy tanked. The Bush Administration shoved through Congress a 800 billion dollar stimulus package. A few months later, the Obama Administration ran through a 1.1 trillion stimulus bill. Really big difference there. Until the Obama administration, Bush ran up a bigger deficit than all previous Presidents and Congresses together.

    Bush failed to control immigration, just like Obama. Bush involved the Untied States in undeclared wars just like Obama wants to. Bush failed to reform Social Security and Medicare just like Obama.

    I could go on and on for many issues. The bottom line is, both Administrations totally disregarded the Constitution, from declaring war, to taking control of education, to seizing daily life issues that are the business of the family, local and state governments. Our economy is suppose to be private enterprise, not a government partnership.

    You cannot create a gap between the two parties with an electron microscope. The choice between the two is false and does nothing to make this nation a better place to live. It dumbs down self initiative, hope, dreams and goals. Two wrongs do not make a right.

    And do not even bring up moral issues like abortion. The Democrats are at least honest about it. While the Republicans around election time pound the podium about family values and right to life, the election passes, and the slaughter continues. During the Bush Administration at one point, he had both houses of Congress and a conservative Supreme Court. In essence, there is no difference in the rate of abortion between the two. As far as same sex rights, during the Bush Administration, four states legalize gay marriage. Both parties are evil to the core, and were born in the pits of hell.
     
    #3 saturneptune, Sep 3, 2013
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  4. poncho

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    Leaving an international banking cartel in control of our economy and shipping our jobs overseas has been a bipartisan policy for years. Increased profits for the banks and corporations increased debt for us.

    It's a wonderful system if you are an international bank or corporation. Bottom line is both democrats and republicans had a hand in destroying our economy.

    It continues because we're to busy blaming the other side to defend our prefered crooked politicians to look at the problem objectively.

    Divided and conquered once again.
     
    #4 poncho, Sep 3, 2013
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  5. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    You obviously didn't read the post. I stated very clearly that politicians shouldn't be making investment decisions, but instead, those who built industry up in the first place: American business.
     
  6. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    It was the failure of those responsible for oversight of the financial industry -- not the politicians but the bureaucrats -- that failed to see the lines being crossed by lenders and the resulting top-down collapse of the mortgage industry due to grossly over-valued real estate loans and grossly under-investigated borrowers. Your comment is an epic fail.
     
  7. poncho

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    Sure it is because I blame both sides where as you just want to blame one.
     
  8. saturneptune

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    I read it very closely, and the fact is, you only blame Democrats, which certainly implies you have some credit to give the godless Republicans in our Congress. The best quote I like is "the quickest route to prosperity and wealth is the free enterprise system."
     
  9. saturneptune

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    And on that point we agree. In fact, I have agreed with all your posts as of late. I am sorry we got derailed for a time.
     
  10. poncho

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    Me to brother let's leave it behind us and move forward. ; )
     
  11. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Neither one of you seem to understand that, while the Republicans are far from perfect, it is business that built this nation, and they are the party that supports business, whereas the Democrats want to usher in socialism and statism. You disparage business and corporations as being "evil" without realizing that it is they who create the jobs that provide you income. In doing so, you have joined the socialists who consider free enterprise a threat to their agenda. If you want to assure their success, keep refusing to give credit to what the Republicans do correctly, and supporting know-nothing, do-nothing parties that have no chance of ever being elected, like the Libertarians (who also support abortion and legalized drugs, among other truly evil things) or the Constitutionalists, who utterly fail to engender any excitement or viable candidates.

    The sad fact is, with more and more adopting your attitude, the end result is going to be either a socialist victory, or anarchy because the vox populi will reject the socialist agenda.
     
    #11 thisnumbersdisconnected, Sep 3, 2013
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  12. saturneptune

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    I never disparaged business or corporations. I work for one after retiring from another. I addressed the abortion issue and Republicans. I addressed Republicans and the economy, and you can show no evidence of any gap. That is the whole issue. I am a registered Republican. I have voted in 13 Presidential elections, and only voted for a Democrat three times. In the last three elections, look who the Republicans put up, McCain, Romney and Bush. You are not reading our posts. No one said they were members of a third party. If you, on the other hand, want a gap to exist, do what you can to nominate someone like the Senator from my state, Rand Paul, to the Presidency, instead of being content with liberal, milquetoast candidates of the last twenty years. Again, you have failed to create a gap between the two.
     
  13. ktn4eg

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    For some unexplainable reason(s), the following quotes came to mind:


    "Don't blame the politicians.......They're best politicians that money can buy!!"


    "Politicians and/or bankers have a lot in common with dirty diapers-----They need to be changed often, and for the same reason."
     
  14. poncho

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    What you describe as "free enterpsie system" is a corporatist system. Corporatism is the merging of state and corporate power. I would wager that none of us here has ever seen a "free market economy" in our lifetimes.

    The history of corporations in the United States is very interesting. For the first 100 years of our republic corporations were given a two year charter. At the end of that period there was a review. If the review showed that the corporation in question no longer served the public good it's charter was not renewed.

    Today however we have allowed corporations to grow and become monterous global entities rich and powerful enough to buy off governments. Now when a corporation such as Monsanto or Eli Lillt says jump the government (both sides) says how high?

    I have never been againt a free market economy or capitalism but I can understand how someone that cannot yet tell the diffence between capitalism and corporatism might think I am against them.

    For what it's worth I agree that free enterprise built this nation problem is corporations today write the regs congress passes into law that are designed to limit or destroy competetion.

    Competion between business also help make this country great by providing us with cheaper and better goods. It also drove inovation. Monopolistic corporate practices are killing all tha made this nation great.
     
  15. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    And everything in between:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. saturneptune

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    One of the best examples of this is 24 hour super sized WalMarts destroying local businesses like groceries, hardware stores, and numerous other types of businesses. I know of a local greeting card shop that went out of business.

    I have noticed traveling around the country some local governments have passed laws to combat Walmarts and Walmart type stores. Some communities only allow Walmarts to be open so many hours a day. I noticed this in some communities around the Madison, WS area. Some other local governments have even taken more extreme action by not giving them a local business license.

    One of the points that you made that is really one that is not thought of much, and to me is a greater threat than the large corporations themselves, is the merger of governing power, (the level of government does not matter) and the corporation. At that point, both the corporation and government benefit each other and not the consumer/taxpayer.
     
  17. Revmitchell

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    I like the big stores. Everything at the small mom and pop places costs almost twice as much.
     
  18. poncho

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    No one ever claimed liberty is cheap Rev. Chinese labor on the other hand? Well, you know how it is we have to lower our wages and standard of living to compete with them it's only fair we're all global citizens now, right? That's what "free trade" is all about maximum profits for transnational corporations.

    I'd like Walmart a lot better if 90% of the products on it's shelves were stamped Made In The USA instead of Made In China. I had the opportunity to see the inside of one of Amazon's "fulfillment centers" a few months back and got to talk with some of the employees there. They were all telling me how great Amazon was and how it was on the cutting edge of internet sales and all that. I asked a couple what they saw when they looked around Amazon. I got answers like it's a great opportunity to grow and how Amazon had helped them out. Then one asked me what I saw. I said I see a warehouse full of good paying American manufacturing jobs being traded to China for lower wage service jobs back here. Needless to say they didn't have a clue about what I was saying and they didn't really care. They had a job.

    They had all learned to love settling for less.
     
    #18 poncho, Sep 3, 2013
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  19. Deacon

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    I'm no expert but I've wondered if Obama's main goal in the multiple stimuli was the degradation of the American dollar.

    Was it his hope to devalued the dollar so much that businesses would find it more economical to make things in the U.S. than to purchase it overseas?

    If he could have contained health care costs there might have been a glimmer of a chance.
    But since health care costs have escalated beyond his imagination it's reduced the buying power of tax-paying Americans and crushed any chance of recovery.

    Rob
     
  20. InTheLight

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    And when has our wages been lowered and our standard of living declined?
     
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