To be raptured?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Optional, Jul 17, 2002.

  1. Optional

    Optional
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    Since I can't get the search feature to work and I know this has been talked to death, I just wanted to get a feel for what some Baptists believe on the rapture. Actually quite a few here at church would, also.
     
  2. Justified

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    I have a question: Being a Born Again Christian, and knowing that the Lord Jesus Christ is coming back.

    How can anyone think that there is not going to be a rapture? :eek:

    I have seen how people can come to the conclusion that there is a post-trib, though I see that the Bible clearly teaches pre-trib rapture.
     
  3. KenH

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    Personally, I can see how one can be pretrib, even though the Bible teaches posttrib. [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  4. Baptist Believer

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    Lot's of people (Bible-believing folks at that) don't believe in "the rapture" -- at least what is talked about in books like "Left Behind" and in dispensational theories.

    For the record, I am the one who voted that there will be no secret "rapture" in this poll.

    The word "rapture" comes from the Latin (?) for a word used to describe believers being "taken up" to meet the Lord in the air found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. I believe this is at the return of Christ one the last day... that is, the day when the sheep are separated from the goats and the Kingdom is fulfilled. The picture is of the crowds rushing to meet the returning victorious King. If this is what is meant by rapture, I believe it. It will happen when Christ returns (He will return once -- publicly).

    Most Christians who believe in a secret rapture seem to think that Matthew 24:36-44 has the clearest teaching on the subject. They seem to think that it is a horrible thing to be left behind. Actually, I hope (and believe) I will be left behind, as will most or all of you. Those who are taken in this passage are those taken to their destruction in judgement.

    Look at the passage carefully:

    Matthew 24
    36   "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
    37   "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

    The comparison here is that God is preparing the world at the coming of the Son of Man (Christ).

    38   "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
    39   and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

    Those who are taken are those who were destroyed by the flood. They did not listen to the testimony of Noah and did not enter into the ark.

    40   "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
    41   "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
    42   "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

    The coming of the Lord will be a surprise and the those who are not prepared will be taken to their destruction.

    43   "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
    44   "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

    Jesus urges us to be prepared for His second coming.

    ---

    In short, I don't believe in a secret rapture because I don't think the Bible teaches it.
    [​IMG]
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    In short, I don't believe in a secret rapture because I don't think the Bible teaches it.

    That is sad, but we accept that not everyone will believe it or think the Bible teaches it. But without it, where is the "blessed hope"?

    "Hopelessness" would be a word that comes to my mind if I were to go through the hell-on-earth of the Tribulation.

    Thank God that he saved me from the wrath to come! Now THAT is a Blessed Hope!
     
  6. Baptist Believer

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    I have hope because I am on God's side. Whatever may come, God will be with me.

    By the way, you view of tribulation is probably a little different than mine, although I don't claim to have a schedule. [​IMG]
     
  7. BrianT

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    The following verses speak of our hope:

    1 Thess 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

    1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

    Hebrews 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

    1 Pet 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    Our hope is in the *fact* of Christ and his coming, that we will be reunited with him and our deceased loved ones - not the *timing* of it.

    Brian
     
  8. Dr. Bob

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    Good thoughts Brian. My hope is in the Lord most assuredly (I'm a calvinist, remember??)

    BUT . . the blessed hope is still that - "blessed".
    THAT, my friend, is what I look for. Not Armageddon or Apocalypse or Vials/Trumpets/Seals of judgment and wrath poured out on the ungodly.
     
  9. HankD

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    Hi Dr Bob,

    For all the terror that is/has been preached from 1 Thessalonians 4, strange that the chapter ends with these words...

    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    HankD
     
  10. BrianT

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    THAT, my friend, is what I look for. Not Armageddon or Apocalypse or Vials/Trumpets/Seals of judgment and wrath poured out on the ungodly.</font>[/QUOTE]Hi Doctor Bob,

    That verse mentions the "blessed hope", but does not say it is "pretrib rapture". In fact, some versions translate it as follows: "while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,", and many translators think the Greek "kai" ("and") is used here (like in other places) as a connection word rather than an addition word. And even other verses tell us to "look for" things that even pretribbers place after the tribulation.

    But keep in mind that posttribbers are also looking for the coming of the Lord. When I'm at work, I am looking for the moment I get home to see my wife and kids - but that doesn't mean I don't have to face rush hour traffic in the mean time.

    Look at the context, starting in verse 13. Paul was comforting them in that they were not like those who would not see their loved ones again, those that had "no hope". He then explains about what happens at Christ's return, that the dead will be raised and we will be changed, all meeting the Lord together in the air. That is the comfort being given in the passage. The comfort is not the *timing* of this event, the timing isn't even mentioned!

    Brian
     
  11. LadyEagle

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    I don't see how any thinking Bible believing saint could NOT believe in pretrib! :eek:

    But secret? I wonder where the secret part came from unless it has something to do with thief in the night....

    The world will believe a great delusion about all of it. Will the world believe we have been snatched away by aliens or a UFO? :eek:

    Still looking up & waiting for that sweet trumpet sound...to hear His voice saying "come up here, Bride, your Bridegroom has come." To see Jesus face to face. To see His hands scarred by spikes, to see His side...all wounded for me. Thank You, Jesus!
     
  12. Baptist Believer

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    I'm guessing this is directed at me since you've picked up on the word "secret". The reason I say I don't believe in a *secret* rapture is that I think the "taking up" will occur when Christ comes to judge the world on the last day. All will see us rushing to meet Christ in the sky. I do not believe in a dispensationalist rapture scenario that is currently popular among some Christians and spelled out in books like "Left Behind".

    Yep, that's the doctrine... Many years ago when I got serious with my faith I took two years and read the Bible cover-to-cover about 4 to 5 times (the New Testament at least 10 to 12 times) and spent many hours studying some crucial books like Genesis, Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, Phillipians, James, Hebrews and the four Gospels. I did not use reference books very often because I was more interested in reading it for myself without cluttering my mind with man-made theories. The Bible I used was a Ryrie Study Bible, although I didn't use the helps that often. When I did use the helps, I noticed that Ryrie (a pre-millenial dispensationalist) was wrong on quite a few doctrines and imposed a dispensationalist framework on the scriptures that seemed unnecessary. He also completely misinterpreted Matthew 24:36-44, saying it was the rapture of the church that would occur before a tribulation. As I explained in a previous post, Jesus clearly teaches that true believers will be left behind and those who are taken are taken in judgement. The day this happens will be the Day of the Lord when Christ will return and the fullness of the Kingdom will be established.

    Because of the time I spent getting familiar with the full story of the Bible before I spent time reading other religious books or listening to lots of preachers, I have had very good success in recognizing false teaching because of the big picture view. While you can build a convincing-sounding case for pre-millenial dispensationalism, the big-picture story of the scriptures doesn't support it very well. The same goes for 5-point Calvinism. (I know I've just about peeved everyone on Baptist Board now! :eek: )

    Yes, that will be no secret. All the world will see Him and know He is Lord.

    [ July 20, 2002, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]
     
  13. postrib

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    Don't lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) when the rapture doesn't happen before the tribulation. Don't lose the hope even if you find yourself at the point of death in the great tribulation, for our hope for eternal life in Jesus Christ (Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7) goes beyond any suffering in this life and any dread of death (Philippians 1:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:19, John 12:25, Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15).

    Note that during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation.

    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  14. Lorelei

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    I chose the "other" option for I am still undecided. Until I (If I) ever decide I work on making sure I am ready for whatever may come.

    I do have a question for those who say the rapture is post trib.

    While Matthew says that the coming of the Lord will be quite visible.

    It also says that no one knows when that will happen.

    Now I have not studied Daniel extensively, but I have a question regarding how this correlates to the Seven weeks of Daniel and other contents therein. The book of Daniel is quite specific when it talks of things that will happen in the end times. For example:

    Can't some research go into to placing a specific time once certain events have taken place? If so, then how will no one know?

    ~Lorelei
     
  15. postrib

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    Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).

    "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).

    I believe that in Matthew 24:36-37 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he said "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). I don't believe that Jesus taught a 3rd coming. Jesus is speaking to the same people in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

    Note the exact correlation of the phrase and tense of "knoweth no man" in Matthew 24:36 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-12: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God." See also: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).

    Jesus said his coming would be "as the days of Noah were" (Matthew 24:36-37). God told Noah when the flood would come before it came: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:4). He told him because: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

    Before the 2nd coming, I believe those of us alive and still faithful at the abomination of desolation will know that we'll have to wait 1,335 days until Jesus comes: "From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12).

    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  16. Graceforever

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    Exactly, Dr. Bob..... I, for one will be waiting for these words, "COME UP HITHER".... I, and the rest of my brothers and sisters, will rise to meet the Lord in the air.... If you don't have this blessed hope, what is your hope?
     
  17. postrib

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    Note that Revelation 4:1's "come up hither" was spoken only to John over 1900 years ago. This is why there's no coming of Christ or rapture and resurrection of the church found in Revelation 4:1, just as there isn’t at the "come up hither" spoken only to the two witnesses in Revelation 11:12.

    I believe we will be raptured up to meet Jesus in the air on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

    Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But note that Matthew 24:29-31 doesn't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 is also not the 2nd coming?

    Eternal life:

    "In hope of eternal life"
    "That blessed hope"
    "The hope of eternal life"
    (Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7)

    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  18. HankD

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    Zechariah 14
    3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south
     
  19. LadyEagle

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    Well, I don't know about ya'll, but I plan to be on a white horse, coming back with the King of Kings & Lord of Lords to the big battle before the 1000 year reign. Guess you won't be able to rejoice in the victory, then. ;) [​IMG] You'll still be looking for the rapture. :eek: And here the marriage supper will have already taken place before this, so you'll miss out on the heavenly eats, too. What good Baptist would want to miss out on that, I ask? :eek: :D :D

    Rev. 19:[10] And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
    [11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    [12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    (note, did you detect a hint of sarcasm?? [​IMG] )
     
  20. Graceforever

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    Not really, charity thinketh no evil.... [​IMG]

    I don’t read anywhere in the bible where Eaglelives is said to come back riding on a white stallion…. I bet you think the serpent, in Revelation, is a real snake…. [​IMG]

    Battle of Armageddon…..

    That would really be a trick, why would Jesus come back and fight a battle?… When God could just could just say the word and every army in the world would be zapped…. He prefers to fight a battle that has blood up to the bridal of a white stallion? I don’t think so…. He said his kingdom wasn’t of this world?
    There’s a line you have to draw on what is spiritual and what is literal…. Yes they are…..

    “COME UP HITHER” those are the exact words that Jesus will say to the two witnesses, which are the church…..
     

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