To Primitive Baptists, Time Salvation :

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by UMP, Mar 8, 2005.

  1. UMP

    UMP
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  2. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
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    There are Primitive Baptists who make a hobby horse out of Conditional Time Salvation, and there are Primitive Baptists who make a hobby horse out of Absolutism. The problem is when there are some who just won't ADMIT what they are.
     
  3. UMP

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    I'm really not that interested in "hobby horses" although, by the grace of God, and only by the grace of God, I am intertested in Truth.
    What do you think of the essay?
     
  4. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello UMP.

    Elder R.H. Boaz must have been a joy to know.
    I did not read it all through but I have it bookmarked for when I forget. :cool:
    What do you think of the essay?
    It is edifying.

    Is there a problem within Primitive Baptists? I'm sure the trouble cannot be too serious if the Primitive Baptists believe Elder R.H. Boaz's words.

    johnp.
     
  5. johnp.

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  6. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed
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    From this writing it would seem to me that Elder Boaz is either an Absoluter or an Antinomian.

    I don't agree with all that he says, and I would say that he would be in a small minority among Primitive Baptists today in his belief of no timely salvation.
     
  7. UMP

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    Johnp,
    Thanks for the reply.
    I have read several essays for and against time salvation. I don't necessarily agree with Elder Boaz simply because I've never really heard it put that way. Maybe I will read it again. I myself am having a hard time understanding these two verses in regards to Time Salvation:

    Philp 2:
    [13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    Hebrews 11:
    [6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    I know that in me (in my flesh) dwells no good thing, but I am called to "diligently seek him".
    The key question for me is, what roll do I myself play. Part of me says I'm an absolute predestinarian because God IS Sovereign in EVERY sense of the word, yet the other part of me wants to work. Just trying to "work out my own salvation" and I'm looking for your help [​IMG]
    As "Primitive Baptist" wrote to my original post, some primitives ride the hobby horse in one direction and others in the opposite direction. I just want to follow the narrow path and there can't be two of them.

    God Bless You !!
     
  8. UMP

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    I would say Boaz is an absoluter.
     
  9. rlvaughn

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    Yes, Elder Boaz was an "Absoluter". His book was written under conditions when Primitive Baptists were dividing over such issues as absolutism/conditionalism, time salvation, and other things. Generally among Primitive Baptists the beliefs for and against "conditional time salvation" divide this way - absoluters do not believe in "conditional time salvation" and the largest group of Primitives (sometimes called "old line", but called "conditionalists" by the Absoluters) do believe in it. But this is not "absolute" and some "old liners" also reject the idea of "conditional time salvation". I have never fully grasped exactly what "conditional time salvation" really is.
     
  10. UMP

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    I feel your pain [​IMG]
    Basically, the absolute side (as far as I can tell) says ALL salvation, temporal or otherwise in unconditional. The other side says temporal is conditional upon obedience. Let me give you an example as written by an elder Michael Gowens,
    "Salvation for heaven is clearly monergistic-i.e. the work of One. It is a work of free and sovereign grace from start to finish. Man is the passive beneficiary, not the active participant, of God's gift of life. The Christian life, however, is clearly synergistic-i.e. the work of more than one. "We are loborers together with God" says the apostle. He exhorts the Philippians to "work out [their] own salvation...for it is God that worketh in you..." (Phi. 2:12-13). Christian discipleship is a partnership- a team effort in which God works and man works. Eternal salvation, on the contrary, is a solo flight in which God alone is active".
     
  11. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello UMP.

    Recipient! COL 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins... :cool:
    Onlooker/bystander! GAL 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.
    Rest and relaxation. Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    Even our prayers are said on our behalf by the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered

    The working out of this is the working out of salvation, the maturing in the faith. It's not the working for or the working to keep but the figuring out. Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest...

    Any use for a start?

    johnp.
     
  12. UMP

    UMP
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    Recipient! COL 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins... :cool:
    Onlooker/bystander! GAL 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.
    Rest and relaxation. Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    Even our prayers are said on our behalf by the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered

    The working out of this is the working out of salvation, the maturing in the faith. It's not the working for or the working to keep but the figuring out. Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest...

    Any use for a start?

    johnp.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Yep,
    That works for me. [​IMG]
    How do you make certain you are living by the spirit? In other words, how do you know the works you are performing are not works of the flesh ?
    For example, the flesh can give 5 bucks to the beggar as well as the spirit, and my heart is deceitful above all else, who can know it?
    Who gave the gift ?? ;)
     
  13. Bro. James Reed

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    If it is an act that is performed out of love for God and His command to help the poor and needy, then it is a gift from the spirit.

    The way I have believed time salvation for some time is thusly.

    Upon regeneration, God places His spirit within us. From then on out that spirit is in a battle with our flesh to do what they each think is best for us. The spirit wants us to worship God and follow his word, while the flesh wants to please these sinful bodies.

    We have the power within us, from the spirit, to do good things and be in accordance with God's word. In one sense we can do good works ourselves, but in another sense it is the spirit indwelling in us that causes us to seek after those Godly things. Either way you put it God is the one who gave us that spirit, so if we do any good it is because He has allowed us.

    In the same token, we have created our own spirit of disobedience, which is the flesh. In that "wrestle" that takes place daily between the two sides, spirit and flesh, we have a decision to make of whether we will listen to one or the other. When we listen to our flsh, and do what is pleasing to that, then we have transgressed God's command and are being disobedient. This is most definitely our fault, not God's.

    You can not have God predestinating me to do things against His will and also have him not be the author of sin. That view just does not work.

    What then do we do with all of the scriptures that teach us to work out our salvation, etc?

    If we are to maintain that God is not the author of sin, and that we don't get ourselves into n eternal heaven, then those passages have to be dealt with in a timely manner.

    The bible was not written for each and every mention of the word salvation to be in reference to eternal salvation, just as the word "world" was not written to mean the whole Adamic world each time it is mentioned.

    Once you have studied through all of the different examples of salvation, world, judgement, etc, and once God gives you understanding in those things, it becomes abundantly clear that there has to be different renderings of the same word within the bible.

    A good example is "word" and "Word". I think we would all be in agreement that one means the written word and the other means the physical, walking Word, that is Jesus Christ. If these two "words", forgive the pun, can be written with two different meanings, then why would we think that salvation and world, etc, could not have more than one meaning?

    The Wide World of Sports is not the same as The World According to Garp; two different types of worlds here and the same as with salvation.

    When Peter walked on water after the Lord he began to sink. He cried for Jesus to save him. Was he asking to be saved eternally or to be saved from a watery grave?

    I hope this helps somewhat, although I realize that I in no way give justice to what the term means. It is my feable attempt at showing what I believe and if you might get anything out of it, it is only because God has given spiritual eyes to see it.

    God bless. Bro. James
     
  14. here now

    here now
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    Here's a Primitive Baptist website that has several essays (suchas,Time Salvation) and some audio sermons as well, By Elder Michael Gowens:
    www.sovgrace.net
     
  15. billwald

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    "If it is an act that is performed out of love for God and His command to help the poor and needy, then it is a gift from the spirit."

    (Then) Anyone who does the act for those reasons is regenerate.
     
  16. UMP

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    Yes,
    Thank you for that and it does help. Perhaps I'm thinking too much. The problem I have is with works and reward for works, in a temporal sense. For example. A time salvationist will say there are temporal rewards for temporal obedience. Was not Paul obedient? What "temporal" rewards did Paul receive other than suffering? The heart is indeed deceitful, above all else. For example, the Pharisee, giving prayer to God so that all could see him may think to himself that he is living by the spirit. In another example, you could argue that time salvation is works for hire. For example, if I give away everything I have knowing I will get double back, what has been my sacrifice?
    God is not the author of sin in the sense of making people sin, however, He is in control of EVERYTHING, including evil. Here is an excerpt from A.W. Pinks writings:

    "Here then is the difficulty: If God has eternally decreed that Adam should eat of the tree, how could he be held responsible not to eat of it? Formidable as the problem appears, nevertheless, it is capable of a solution, a solution, moreover, which can be grasped even by the finite mind. The solution is to be found in the distinction between God's secret will and his revealed will. As stated in Appendix A 1411, human responsibility is measured by our knowledGen. of God's revealed will; what God has told us, not what he has not told us, is the definer of our duty. So it was with Adam.

    That God had decreed sin should enter this world through the disobedience of our first parents was a secret hid in his own breast. Of this Adam knew nothing, and that made all the difference so far as his responsibility was concerned. Adam was quite unacquainted with the Creator's hidden counsels. What concerned him was God's revealed will. And that was plain! God had forbidden him to eat of the tree, and that was enough. But God went further: he even warned Adam of the dire consequences which would follow should he disobey — death would be the penalty. Transgression, then, on the part of Adam was entirely without excuse. Created with no evil nature in him, with a will in perfect equipoise, placed in the fairest environment, given dominion over all the lower creation, allowed full liberty with only a single restriction upon him, plainly warned of what would follow an act of insubordination to God, there was every possible inducement for Adam to preserve his innocence; and, should he fail and fall, then by every principle of righteousness his blood must lie upon his own head, and his guilt be imputed to all in whose behalf he acted.

    Had God disclosed to Adam his purpose that sin would enter this world, and that he had decreed Adam should eat of the forbidden fruit, it is obvious that Adam could not have been held responsible for the eating of it. But in that God withheld the knowledGen. of his counsels from Adam, his accountability was not interfered with.

    Again; had God created Adam with a bias toward evil, then human responsibility had been impaired and man's probation merely one in name. But inasmuch as Adam was included among that which God, at the end of the sixth day, pronounced "Very good", and, inasmuch as man was made "upright" (Ec 7:29), then every mouth must be stopped and the whole world must acknowledGen. itself "guilty before God" (Rom. 3:19).

    Once more, it needs to be carefully borne in mind that God did not decree that Adam should sin and then inject into Adam an inclination to evil, in order that his decree might be carried out. No; "God cannot be tempted, neither tempteth he any man" (Jas 1:13). Instead, when the Serpent came to tempt Eve, God caused her to remember his command forbidding to eat of the tree of the knowledGen. of good and evil and of the penalty attached to disobedience! Thus, though God had decreed the Fall, in no sense was he the Author of Adam's sin, and at no point was Adam's responsibility impaired. Thus may we admire and adore the "manifold wisdom of God", in devising a way whereby his eternal decree should be accomplished, and yet the responsibility of his creatures be preserved intact.

    perhaps. a further word should be added concerning the decretive will of God, particularly in its relation to evil. First of all we take the high ground that, whatever things God does or permits, are right, just, and good, simply because God does or permits them. When Luther gave answer to the question, "Whence it was that Adam was permitted to fall, and corrupt his whole posterity; when God could have prevented him from falling, etc", he said, "God is a Being whose will acknowledges no cause: neither is it for us to prescribe rules to his sovereign pleasure, or call him to account for what he does. He has neither superior nor equal; and his will is the rule of all things. He did not thus will such and such things because they were right, and he was bound to will them; but they are therefore equitable and right because he wills them. The will of man, indeed, may be influenced and moved; but God's will never can. To assert the contrary is to undeify him" (De Servo, Arb. c/ 153).

    To affirm that God decreed the entrance of sin into his universe, and that he foreordained all its fruits and activities, is to say that which, at first may shock the reader; but reflection should show that it is far more shocking to insist that sin has invaded his dominions against his will, and that its exercise is outside his jurisdiction: for in such a case where would be his omnipotency? No; to recognise that God has foreordained all the activities of evil, is to see that he is the Governor of sin: his will determines its exercise, his power regulates its bounds (Psa. 76:10). He is neither the Inspirer nor the Infuser of sin in any of his creatures, but he is its Master, by which we mean God's management of the wicked is so entire that, they can do nothing save that which his hand and counsel, from everlasting, determined should be done.

    Though nothing contrary to holiness and righteousness can ever emanate from God, yet he has, for his own wise ends, ordained his creatures to fall into sin. Had sin never been permitted, how could the justice of God have been displayed in punishing it? How could the wisdom of God have been manifested in so wondrously overruling it? How could the grace of God have been exhibited in pardoning it? How could the power of God have been exercised in subduing it? A very solemn and striking proof of Christ's acknowledgment of God's decretal of sin is seen in his treatment of Judas. The Saviour knew full well that Judas would betray him, yet we never read that he expostulated with him! Instead, he said to him, "That thou doest, do quickly" (John 13:27)! Yet, mark this was said after he had received the sop and Satan had taken possession of his heart. Judas was already prepared for and determined on his traitorous work, therefore did Christ permissively (bowing to his Father's ordination) bid him go forth to his awful work.

    Thus, though God is not the author of sin, and though sin is contrary to his holy nature, yet the existence and operations of it are not contrary to his will, but subservient to it. God never tempts man to sin, but he has, by his eternal counsels (which he is now executing), determined its course. Moreover, as we have shown in 1388, though God has decreed man's sins, yet is man responsible not to commit them, and blameable because he does. Strikingly were these two sides of this awful subject brought together by Christ in that statement of his: "Woe unto the world because of offences! For it must needs be that offences come (because God has foreordained them); but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh" (Mt 18:7). So, too, though all which took place at Calvary was by the "determinate counsel and foreknowledGen. of God" (Acts 2:23), nevertheless, "wicked hands" crucified the Lord of glory, and, in consequence, his blood has righteously rested upon them and on their children. High mysteries are these, yet it is both our happy privilege. and bounden duty to humbly receive whatsoever God has been pleased to reveal concerning them in his Word of Truth."

    Regardless, what you say is true, anything good that comes from us, good in a true Godly sense, is from God because NOTHING good is in us outside of God.
    My desire is to live by the spirit always. I pray that it is God's will that I do so.
    God Bless You !
     
  17. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
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    Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. -James 1:21

    James begins this exhortations in verse 19, "Wherefore, my beloved brethren..." James is not writing to sinners who do not know God, but to brethren in Christ. Here is what The King James Study Bible states about this verse:

    "...it is better in this context to understand it as the Word's ability to to preserve and mature the Christian's life through trials."

    That is "Conditional Time Salvation" in a nutshell. It is "conditional" because the will of man is involved. It is "time" because it is not eternal. It is "salvation" because it is deliverance. Keep in mind that I said "conditional," not "optional." Peter exhorted the Jews on the day of Pentecost, "...Save yourselves from this untoward generation" (Acts 2:40). How do those who do not teach Conditional Time Salvation interpret such verses as Acts 10:43? "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." All Primitive Baptists affirm unconditional eternal salvation, although they may not call it that. But this verse very clearly puts a condition on the remission of sins...faith. Christ's death unconditionally forgave God's elect (relationship), but in order for them to be saved practically and experimentally based on that, there are conditions (fellowship). We are not robots.
     
  18. johnp.

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    Sorry UMP I've been trying to answer this all week but I kept being interrupted.

    I'll tell you what I think. :cool:
    How do you make certain you are living by the spirit?
    By believing Christ died for your sins. We live by faith not by works or the lack of them. We have nothing to worry about
    ...how do you know the works you are performing are not works of the flesh ?
    I know that they are the works of the flesh because I'm still a sinner. Nothing good lives in me but that's alright because Jesus died for my sins.
    If we are honest I believe that all our actions are selfishness trying to disguise itself as good. The things that are generated within us are sin and of no use for anything spiritual even as Christians.
    If it is good then it must come from God and when we do a work, all things we do are His work, He blesses us for the element in that work that was His work and disregards our sinfulness except as a Father teaching His Children to bring honour and respect to His Name. He is responsible for His house not us.
    ...how do you know the works you are performing are not works of the flesh ?
    If you keep in mind that we are sinners then this worry will cease. To to bring it into conscious reckoning means that you have forgotten Jesus died for your sins. *
    It's a way of life. Jesus lives in us and acts out His plan by acting in us to will and do His good pleasure. Whatever we do He is doing it through you. Jesus said, "I am with you till the end of the age"! Not that He is far off but is with us in our actions as first cause every moment of our lives.
    ...how do you know the works you are performing are not works of the flesh ?
    Is it good to leave a man with little with a little bit more? So what it makes us selfrighteous, it makes a poor man a little richer? So you give but what does that do even when acted in perfection but what we should do anyway! Give. :cool:
    You see the thought might occur to you not to give because that would make you selfrighteous and would leave the poor man in the condition he was in before.
    I don't usually refrain from giving to anyone who asks me but I don't go out much!HaHa! I will normally give to alcholics and drug users. I know that upsets people but I do make distinctions and refuse sometimes.
    I have also learnt that it can be just as important to receive as it is to give.
    You can know it. Just think the worse of yourself and you will be living in the Spirit! :cool: You are a sinner still. That's good news because Jesus died for our sins.
    Your heart has had a bit of surgery done on it! It should no longer fool you. Just think the worse of yourself and you will not have scratched the surface. You are a sinner. It was always telling me how good I was! Certainly nothing that would keep me out of Heaven! I wasn't that bad.
    It is there and still deceitfulness but it's cover has been blown so to speak. :cool: You can say hello to it the next time you give some money to a bum. :cool: Then say bye bye to it. It has no power over a sinner! :cool: What do you think, a bit rambling?

    * That means I am free to behave as I please as long as my conscience is clear and there is no explicite scripture forbidding what I do. "Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 1CO 6:12.
    We are really free. Jesus really died for our sins.

    johnp.
     
  19. UMP

    UMP
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    Yes,
    I agree with what you have said.
     
  20. UMP

    UMP
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    I'll tell you what I think. :cool:
    How do you make certain you are living by the spirit?
    By believing Christ died for your sins. We live by faith not by works or the lack of them. We have nothing to worry about
    ...how do you know the works you are performing are not works of the flesh ?
    I know that they are the works of the flesh because I'm still a sinner. Nothing good lives in me but that's alright because Jesus died for my sins.
    If we are honest I believe that all our actions are selfishness trying to disguise itself as good. The things that are generated within us are sin and of no use for anything spiritual even as Christians.
    If it is good then it must come from God and when we do a work, all things we do are His work, He blesses us for the element in that work that was His work and disregards our sinfulness except as a Father teaching His Children to bring honour and respect to His Name. He is responsible for His house not us.
    ...how do you know the works you are performing are not works of the flesh ?
    If you keep in mind that we are sinners then this worry will cease. To to bring it into conscious reckoning means that you have forgotten Jesus died for your sins. *
    It's a way of life. Jesus lives in us and acts out His plan by acting in us to will and do His good pleasure. Whatever we do He is doing it through you. Jesus said, "I am with you till the end of the age"! Not that He is far off but is with us in our actions as first cause every moment of our lives.
    ...how do you know the works you are performing are not works of the flesh ?
    Is it good to leave a man with little with a little bit more? So what it makes us selfrighteous, it makes a poor man a little richer? So you give but what does that do even when acted in perfection but what we should do anyway! Give. :cool:
    You see the thought might occur to you not to give because that would make you selfrighteous and would leave the poor man in the condition he was in before.
    I don't usually refrain from giving to anyone who asks me but I don't go out much!HaHa! I will normally give to alcholics and drug users. I know that upsets people but I do make distinctions and refuse sometimes.
    I have also learnt that it can be just as important to receive as it is to give.
    You can know it. Just think the worse of yourself and you will be living in the Spirit! :cool: You are a sinner still. That's good news because Jesus died for our sins.
    Your heart has had a bit of surgery done on it! It should no longer fool you. Just think the worse of yourself and you will not have scratched the surface. You are a sinner. It was always telling me how good I was! Certainly nothing that would keep me out of Heaven! I wasn't that bad.
    It is there and still deceitfulness but it's cover has been blown so to speak. :cool: You can say hello to it the next time you give some money to a bum. :cool: Then say bye bye to it. It has no power over a sinner! :cool: What do you think, a bit rambling?

    * That means I am free to behave as I please as long as my conscience is clear and there is no explicite scripture forbidding what I do. "Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 1CO 6:12.
    We are really free. Jesus really died for our sins.

    johnp.
    </font>[/QUOTE]What do I think of what you've written ?
    I think I'll copy it and keep it in my wallet!
    God Bless You !
     

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