Featured To the Calvinists here: what part of Non cal theology Bothers you the Most?

Light can be rejected. I agree with you on that which is why I reject Calvinism's "Irresistable Grace".

I agree that "quickened" does not mean saved to the extent that Calvinism interprets it. To be quickened is as essential process of salvation in Calvinist theology. But quicken does mean to be made alive (Gr "ontos" and Hebrew "chayah").

"Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die" 1 Cor 15:36

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" 1 Peter 3:18

 

Quickened and enlightened are not one in the same but two distinct words with differing meanings. The meaning in Hebrews 6 is not synonymous or the same as the meaning of 'made alive' in Colossians and Ephesians.

I don't see any texts in Scripture of those 'quickened' (made alive) that are not also saved. In fact the term is used jointly with their salvation in context. Thus it does mean 'saved' and it does in fact mean 'made alive' in the contexts where it is used.

- Blessings

 

Then you simply don't understand the meaning or teaching of 'Irresistible Grace' and take the term only at face value. It's like you buying a box of Grape Nuts and taking it back to the store because it's not actually Grape Nuts.

For those such as yourself do not understand the 'I' in TULIP take a gander here at how each person methodically erected a straw man and attacked it, and note the last post that my mission to prove such misunderstanding was accomplished respectively:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=73419

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=73419&page=15

 

And that goes back to my original question: which came first, salvation or faith?

 

Thanks. :thumbs:

 

OK then I will ask you to define "Irresistable Grace" so that I am not misunderstanding you. If you claim that I don't understand it, then feel free to tell me whether or not grace can be resisted or not according to Calvinism.

 

Salvation isn't a reward thus your point is to say faith came first and hence we were then rewarded with salvation, making salvation not a gift. This is the logical conclusion of the above misnomer and shows some misunderstanding and a need for sharpening ones Soteriology. Each of our Soteriological understandings need sharpened and we will never know enough but thankful that we hunger for knowledge and Psalm 11:2; "Great are the works of the Lord, studied by all who delight in them.'

Faith is the gift of God. Faith is evidence of salvation, not the cause. God Himself is the cause, 1 Peter 1:1-3ff.

Keep studying. Self discovery is a good teacher.

 

Bro James,

Take a gander at the thread, explanation is in there, have to get going here in a bit. You will also collect a few straw men from others arguments and see how they misunderstand and attack what they don't understand.

- Blessings

 

Now it is you who is misunderstanding my view. I do not claim that salvation is a reward, those are your words not mine. That is a caricature of your own creation. But faith is the vehicle that God choose to save man by:

"Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you" Matt 9:29

"But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole." Matt 9:22

"When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5

And it is also lack of faith that rejects salvation:

"And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief" Matt 13:58

"And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief." Hebrews 3:18-19

Calvinism has the person being saved before they have even had faith in Christ, and in scripture faith has ALWAYS preceded salvation, not the other way around.

 

I'm seriously not going to read through 150+ plus comments to dig through somoeone's definition of Irresistable Grace. You claimed that I misunderstood it, so you should be able give me a simple and concise definition of what it is that I can quote you on it when I explain my position. That way there will be no misunderstanding. Surely if you know the "I" well enough to claim that I don't understand, you would have a definition available, or even a link to where you have given it specifically. All I see is explanations of what it is not, but I don't see your explanation for what it IS.

 

Great verses. No man comes to Christ accept the Father draw them. Faith is a gift.

- Blessings

 

In Ephesians 2:8, SALVATION is the gift through faith, not faith. This is a misconstruction of the verse. Even faith itself as special impartation to those already saved was given to SOME, but not all of the church. 1 Cor 12:9.

God draws men to Him when they put their faith in Him (evidenced in previous post), He does not draw them and then give them faith against their will. If God drew men without faith first, Jesus would never have to ask "do you believe?" Such a question would be redundant and irrelevant.

 

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Gal 3:23 Before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which afterward should be revealed. Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffereing, gentleness, goodness, faith. Heb 12:2 Unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.

 

Bro James,

You've erected yet another straw man. Don't assume, debate within facts not your assumptions my friend. Can you point me to where I alluded to Ephesians 2:8? No you cannot, you're simply setting up straw man arguments then battling them -- you're more intelligent than to do this James. You've also brought in 'against their will' something I've not mentioned and you're arguing against another erected straw man.

I will say this though, our wills must be changed and God alone does that, as in our lost state we are at heart enemies toward God, hostile toward God, and slaves to sin as per John 8, Romans 6 and more. So yes, salvation is against mans will in his lost state, that's a fact. For example this is different than getting someone else to say a prayer then proclaiming them saved because the preacher quotes Romans 10:13 and this is what SOME do. This is incorrect theology and many have done this and secured faith in faith the heart of another, deceiving them and their is no change in the person. Instead something must change, and that by Gods power alone. Thus there is no such thing as faith regeneration. It is Spirit regeneration that converts. We have today 1) Faith regeneration; 2) Baptismal regeneration; 3) Spirit regeneration. Only one is salvific.

Romans 10:17 -- faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ, not from us. It's a gift. There are more passages supporting this.

- Blessings

 

Exactly. :thumbsup:

 

You said faith is a gift from God. Granted, I'll give it to you, you did not use Eph 2:8. or 1 Cor 12. So then I'll give you the opportunity to show me where the Bible says faith is a gift. If you can't show in the Bible that faith is a gift from God, then not only did I not use a straw man argument, but you would be admitting that your statement was extra-Biblical.

Perhaps I simply knew which verses Calvinists rely on to prove that faith is a gift. But feel free to show me where else in the Bible that faith is called a gift. I don't mind being corrected if I'm wrong.

And yet your argument that I was erecting a straw man debate was partly based on you never saying that salvation was against man's will, and then you follow that up with this "yes, salvation is against mans will". So who's really using straw man arguments! Kind of defeats the purpose of claiming I don't understand the issues when you admit to them later.

Now this much I can agree with you on with the exception of what is erroneously called "faith regeneration". Faith is the means by which salvation is acquired, faith itself is not salvation, and I have already listed all the verses heretofore to show that. I agree that it is the Spirit that does the regeneration (Titus 3:5) but faith is required for that to take place.

This would refute your own position if you are claiming that faith is a gift from God, because here faith comes by HEARING the word of God and "how shall they hear without a preacher". So there are at least 2 elements that are present before God even gets involved: 1) the hearing and 2) the preacher.

However, a person can not have faith if he does not know what he is supposed to have faith in. Oprah Winfrey talks about "faith" all the time. "Just have faith". Faith in what? The word of God is what tells the sinner the subject that their faith is to be in: Christ. It is also the means by which the sinner knows what Christ did to acquire redemption (death and resurrection). And it is the word of God as opposed to the Bhagavad Gita or the Quran.

Romans 10:17 does not say that faith is a gift. It demonstrates the source of where of faith is found. If faith was a gift that is imposed, then there would be no need for the Bible, a sinner would have the ability to believe without it.

 

I explained ROmans 10:17 in the above post to P4T. In Gal 3:23, Paul is referring to a specific faith that came in the NT, not faith in general. If faith did not come until the NT, then Habakkuk 2:4 is out of place, and so is Hebrews chapter 11 with the testimonies of an entire group of OT saints that lived by faith.

Gal 5:22, faith is a fruit of the Spirit, doesn't say gift.

Heb 12:2 shows that Jesus is the author of our faith not a force imposed on us. Faith in this verse is a description of a system of belief held by believers as a whole, not a reference to an individual initial faith. It is descriptive of the belief system from start to finish and the author of that book is Christ. "He which hath begun a good work in you shall perform it until the day of Christ" Phil 1:6. When a person puts their faith in Christ, He then begins the work in them and finishes it which is why a saved person can never be lost. But God does not impose faith on someone or make them believe, and none of these 4 verses prove otherwise.