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Featured To the Calvinists here: what part of Non cal theology Bothers you the Most?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Yeshua1, May 22, 2013.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I have read calvin, read Hodgh, berkhof, geisler, Erickson, grudem, Chafer, so would say that as a calvinist, have NOT wedded myself to calvin, but would say that as a dispy cal, have taken the DoG and sotierology he expressed, but not His Amil/baby baptism !

    regardless of any system we take to understand the bible, and we ALL have one, its still the bible ALONE that is the primary/inspired text!
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    there is no true free will for us since the Fall!
    probably the biggest "myth" in non cal theology is that somehow we can still come to God by ourselves!

    BOTh cals/arms affirm that the Fall debased us, made us spiritually unable/unwilling to cometo Christ ourselves, that we MUST have God effectually apply Grcae towards us first!

    Do you deny that?
     
  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Of course the Arm folks deny that view. They consider the fall did not effect their freedom of choice and they have the total volition to make to "invite Christ into their heart" choice irregardless of the fall.

    The Arm folks consider they were born with a propensity to sin, but not "in sin."

    They cannot not take the psalmist literally when he states, "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." Psalms 58:3

    Would Christ EVER want to inhabit a dirty, sinful, self willed human who extends an invitation to God to join him? NO!!!!!

    Believers are "NEW creatures, created in Christ Jesus." We await a "new body" in the heavenly, and war against the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (all that the old nature and body have to offer).
     
  4. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    #104 HeirofSalvation, May 25, 2013
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  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    A person is one of two seeds.

    The devil.

    The Christ.

    There is NO mid - free choice in my will - seed.

    One is either a slave to the devil or free in Christ.

    For one to consider that there is some "free choice" outside of the direct and purposed work of God through the Holy Spirit and Scriptures is not biblically sound.
     
  6. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    #106 HeirofSalvation, May 25, 2013
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  7. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch New Member

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  8. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    There are verses that tell us that, but needing them is a bit silly. That's like me claiming there is gravity and you saying, "WHERE IS THE VERSE THAT SAYS THERE IS GRAVITY!?!?! You Calvinists add gravity to the Scriptures!!"

    Do you see how ridiculous that is?

    Where is the verse that purports that nonsense?


    The question, James, is WHY? Why do some will and others NOT will?

    You act like the will has no force behind it.

    Why do you will to eat supper? Hunger moves you to will to do so.

    Things move our will, James. Our will does not exist independently. It does not have its OWN being. It is not SELF-EXISTENT, sir.

    Balderdash! Behind volition is STILL the question, why?

    Why do some wish to do this and others wish to do that?

    The problem with you Arminians, or "non-cals" or whatever you want to call yourselves, is that you ask why only up to the "will of man" and then you immediately STOP and say, "THERE!! That's why!!"

    And if anybody asks why one more time you plug your ears and start screaming, "FREE WILL, FREE WILL, FREE WILL!!!" refusing to reason any further.
     
    #108 Luke2427, May 25, 2013
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  9. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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  10. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    Therein lies the crux of the argument Luke, and I agree with you.

    What is being asked is NOT "Biblical" though, as much as each side would like to claim it were.

    You are asking something to the effect of:

    WHY?
    does one "will" one thing and not another.

    Unfortunately, the answer is that the Arminian claims that there is no CAUSAL force or reason or answer as to "WHY" a person might choose one thing or another....

    but the Calvinist system insists that there are explanatory factors as to "WHY" a person "chooses" one thing or another. (See the notion of "depravity" et. al.)

    What that does in the Calvinist System is create a set of "guarantors" of decisions (I will obviously refuse to now call them "free").
    But, Arminianism rejects the notion that any set of factors are a guarantor of why someone chooses anything.
    Whatever surrounds it, is somewhat ancillary.

    As to the answer to the last question
    The answer is.....dum dum dum.........Arminians don't propose an answer to "why".....They don't pre-suppose there IS a "why". Nothing is "guaranteed" as far as a creaturely decision is concerned....it's merely a propositional statement that subject x made decision y in circumstances c....
    There IS no answer as to "WHY"?

    I'll put it this way:
    Arminians assume that IF there is a "WHY"....than the answer was not "free"...it would have been necessesarry by definition or decree.
    Whatever the difference is, Luke, unfortunately........it rests upon some Philosphical pre-suppositions, not "Biblical" ones. Anyone who claims that they don't import Philosophical notions INTO their hermeneutic is lying to themselves or ignorant.....

    I believe that you know other-wise.

    I think some understanding of God's Omniscience is required here:
    I divide it into three distinct spectrums for brevity:
    1.) (Calvie view) God is Omniscient and knows all things because he decreed them...and there is a causal explanation for every "WHY". And that explanation is generally centered in God's ultimate decree.

    2.) (Simple foreknowledge) God is Omniscient inasmuch as he transcends time and has a PERCEPTUAL knowledge [foresight] of all creaturely decisions....

    3.) (My view, which is a Molinistic one which is Arminianism plus garlic)

    God "foreknows" all things PROPOSITIONALLY . Or, rather....God's "Omniscience" boils down to the fact that God simply believes all true propositions and believes no false ones.
    Thus, God's Omniscience is a propositional knowledge (not perceptual, nor strictly decretal) inextricably linked to the necessity of his being.

    God's Omniscience is as much a necessary facet of his being as his Aseity is or his Omnipotence.

    Omnipotence......is a trait Calvies are right to defend
    but,
    Molinist/Arms like me view God's Omniscience as EQUALLY interr-laced with God's being, a necessary part of his existence...

    God doesn't "perceive" reality (simple Arm foreknowledge) nor does he "decree" it (classic Calvinist foreknowledge)
    God, rather, simply......"knows"..propositionally (as a necessary facet of his being) what a creature will do in the future. NOTHING though explains the "why" because...........there IS no "why". If there were a "why" than it wasn't a "free" decision but, rather a "decreed" one (or causally guaranteed)..........and that's Calvinism.

    Good to see you ma' brutha' Peace and Love and what-not :1_grouphug:
     
  11. TexMac

    TexMac New Member

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    Yep, seems to me you caught him loading the wrong wagon. :thumbs:
     
  12. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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  13. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Yes, Walls is an excellent speaker. I do not necessarily agree with everything he says, I believe he is Methodist, but he makes valid points.

    I would like to see him take on James White, that would be a GREAT debate.
     
  14. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I got back late to respond to a post.

    But it really needs to be addressed because it is obvious the poster has attempted to belittle without knowing anything about the person he is responding too.

    Here is the response to that post, and then I am done with this thread.

    Amazing what a person considers what I am or am not ignorant. Strikes as being a rather presumptuous and prideful statement to make when you have absolutely no information to base it upon.




    Again this is total assumption that is basically without factual merit.


    Again an assumption of what I do and do not know.

    Fact is that most free will / free choice folks DO NOT admit to such a notion. Rather, they consider that within themselves they have the freedom of choice, the innate ability to choose. This is born out repeatedly on the BB for years.


    I don't doubt that. At my age, I've seen too much to be surprised by much, too.

    Really, do you really consider me so ignorant that I haven't read what little Pelagius wrote - very little remained of his work after he was branded a heretic by the way?

    The church had not yet become the anti-christ body of a few centuries later. For Pelagius lived a little more than three hundred years after the last apostle died. Jerome (a contemptorary) felt the same way as Augustine (also a contemporary) did about Pelagius and his teaching. He was not condemned by a few crackpots of his day, but by the very theological folks in which the church basically looks upon.

    It is important to note that the Romanist church that came out of the true catholic church did and still does embrace some Pelagius teaching that they once condemned.



    This is the way to gather great support for your argument. Make sure you bury the person in what YOU present as that person's knowledge and experiential history.



    THAT is the problem. Pelagius believed and taught (what we have of his anyway) two basic controversial doctrines that continue to this day: 1) That a humankind have the ability to live sinless, and 2) That humankind can free choose to obey the ten commandments. From these teachings come the basic Arminian doctrines.

    Both of these are heretical teachings.

    Certainly, CAREFUL reading can ascribe that Pelagius recognized that God's grace was instrumental in the processes, but ultimately it all rested upon MAN'S ability, and MAN'S free willed choice without regard to the divine and purposed intervention of God.



    Pardon me being a bit alarmed. Are you disqualifying a part of the Scriptures to your own benefit?

    I don't know about your children, but MY children spoke from the time they were born. They let us know very often when they needed attention. There are many forms of speaking - actions speak loudly, especially that of the newborn.

    In your attempt to prove your view, you now seem to make little of a great psalm. Sad!



    Perhaps you just weren't listening. I don't know. I wasn't there. All I can say is mine did. Loudly and often.



    Reading carefully you should have the answer before you!!!!

    It says the MOTHER was in sin at the time of conception.

    It says the psalmist shape (formation) took place in iniquity.

    I am always amazed at the lengths some Arminian folks will take to make the conception sinless and the baby not born as sin filled as any other humankind.

    "ALL have sinned" didn't exclude newborns.




    Perhaps in your quest to impose your own thinking, you drag other matters into the discussion. But to answer your question is not worthy at this time. Mind you - not saying your ignorant, or need further reading experience, but just this isn't the discussion point.



    I can only assume you are upset and mixing topics from other discussion threads and have lost the focus of this one. I have made no such statement(s).


    You can take what you like, and respond as you desire to any of my posts. That isn't the question.

    The point I was making at the last was basic. Does God get invited or does He do the inviting? Does God inhabit the old nature by acknowledging the ability of that sinful creature to freely call upon Him?

    You didn't (or couldn't) rationally reasonably respond. I don't know which.

    Perhaps if you spent less time in belittle dribble, you might have brought more insight to the campaign. As it was - I doubt your superior knowledge is worthy of my poor ignorant scribble.

    THAT ACH is Checkmate!
     
  15. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    This is a misunderstanding of Reformed soteriology. The Bible teaches a distinct order of salvation (although the sequence of events is so quick that they appear almost simultaneous). Regeneration produces faith which leads to justification. I'm vacationing right now so I don't have time to go into the intricacies of Reformed soteriology, but what I wrote about the order of salvation is it in a nutshell.
     
  16. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    What a joke! Your children were born speaking lies? How did you know they were lying, do you speak gobbilty-goop?

    And if you take verse 3 as literal, do you take the following verses literally as well?

    Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
    4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
    5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
    6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
    7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.
    8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

    Were your children born poisonous like an adder shown in verse 4? My, that would make breast feeding rather dangerous don't you think? :laugh:

    Were your children born with a mouthful of great teeth like a young lion's as shown in verse 6? That would be rather startling to see!

    Did they melt like snails as shown in verse 8? Better keep salt away from them!

    This shows how ridiculous this view is. Psalm 58 is obvious exaggeration and should not be taken literally. To form doctrine from this Psalm is pure foolishness, that was not the purpose of this Psalm.

    And what language did your children speak when they truly began to speak? Mine spoke English, just as their mother and father spoke. All children speak the language of their parents. You don't have a child with English speaking parents speak Spanish, or any other language. Therefore it is obvious children learn language and the ability to speak from hearing their parents and siblings around them. This is also where they hear lies and LEARN to lie.

    Amazing the nonsense you have to endure from seemingly intelligent people.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    12 pages of running amok.

    What do Calvinists find offensive about non Calvinist doctrine?

    Calvinists believe in Total Spiritual Inability, thus when non-Calvinists quote scripture that demonstrates unregenerates seek God and heaven, they hate it. Matthew 23:13.

    Calvinists believe in Unconditional Election, thus when non-Calvinists quote scripture that demonstrates God chooses people for salvation through faith in the truth, they hate it. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

    Calvinists believe in Limited Atonement, thus when non-Calvinists quote scripture that demonstrates Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, they hate it. 1 Timothy 2:6

    Calvinists believe in Irresistible Grace, thus when non-Calvinists quote scripture that demonstrates unregenerate men can understand the milk of the gospel, they hate it. 1 Corinthians 3:1

    But most of all they hate discussing the faults of Calvinism, and so constantly seek to discuss the faults of Arminianism. :)
     
  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    #118 Aaron, May 25, 2013
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  19. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch New Member

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  20. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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