To those NOT Holding to OSAS, Would Apostasy be ONLY way to lose it?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Apr 30, 2013.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Do you regard it as if one does that, and if yes, would that be a never to get saved again moment?

    So even you admit that it a very advanced stage, not just losing it because of sinning sometimes?
     
    #1 Yeshua1, Apr 30, 2013
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  2. Iconoclast

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    19 They went out from us, but they were not of us;

    for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:



    but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us



    4 for [it is] impossible for those once enlightened, having tasted also of the heavenly gift, and partakers having became of the Holy Spirit,

    5 and did taste the good saying of God, the powers also of the coming age,

    6 and having fallen away, again to renew [them] to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.

    7 For earth, that is drinking in the rain many times coming upon it, and is bringing forth herbs fit for those because of whom also it is dressed, doth partake of blessing from God,

    8 and that which is bearing thorns and briers [is] disapproved of, and nigh to cursing, whose end [is] for burning;
     
  3. drfuss

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    First, I will ask if Calvinists believe in OSAS. Does Perseverance of the Saints (the elect) mean if you do not persevere, that you were not a part of the elect? There seems to be differences of opinion on this.

    Back to the OP.
    It is my understanding that the Freewill Baptists believe that you can forfeit (but not lose) your salvation by apostasy, that it is then impossible to believe again based on Hebrews 6:4-6. See the post by Iconoclast for Heb. 6:4-6.

    Other denominations who believe a Christian can forfeit (but not lose) their salvation, believe that Heb. 6:4-6 applies to the Jews to whom it was written. It was impossible to convince those Jews, who had already switched from the Jewish beliefs to Christian beliefs, to then again back to the Jewish beliefs; it would be impossible to get them to believe again because it would indicate that Christ being crucified meant little to them and putting Christ and themselves to public shame. The idea is not that God would not accept them back, but that these Jews could not bring themselves to again believe.

    These other denominations believe that God will accept apostate Christians back each time they truly repent and recommit their life to Him as Savior and Lord.

    Not sure what is meant by the OP about losing salvation because of sinning. I don't know of any major denomination that believes that committing sins has anything to do with either forfeiting or losing your salvation (except the RCC).
     
    #3 drfuss, May 1, 2013
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  4. Yeshua1

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    reformed calvinists hold to a different view then baptsit calvinist, as one holds that God will enable and make sure a saint makes it to end, so to prove were really saved, other view is that we are eternally xecured by the cross, and the sealing of the HS in us to make sure will get to heaven!

    And isn't any view regarding losing gift of eternal life based upon holding to god permitting free will to fully remain, so the saved can stillchose to 'walk away"
     
  5. drfuss

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    ??? I thought reformed Calvinists and baptist calvinists were the same. Do not both types of Calvinists believe in the five points of Calvinism? Most baptists are not Calvinists, but believe in eternal security.
     
  6. Greektim

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    reformed calvinist (never heard this before btw)

    baptist calvinist

    what about reformed baptists???
     
  7. Jedi Knight

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    I would rather call it the Perseverance of the Spirit.
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    drfuss
    No...calvinists believe in:
    http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc17.html

    Yes...1Jn219 out of us they went forth, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but -- that they might be manifested that they are not all of us.

    Back to the OP.
     
  9. drfuss

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    I agree, Calvinist do not believe in OSAS. Do Calvinists believe in eternal security? If so, please explain since they do not believe in OSAS.

    Thanks
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    DrFuss,

    Calvinists believe that Jesus covenant death was perfect and accomplished redemption for everyone it was intended to save,
    Jesus saves and keeps everyone of His sheep.[the elect]
    Once saved from their sins, they are KEPT by the power of God.

    2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

    5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    DRF,
    This keeping is what links salvation/sanctification that is maintained by God himself.....

    6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

    5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

    6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

    31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

    32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

    37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



    The only real question is....are we In Christ.....by God given faith. If we are in Union with Christ....we are in eternal union. All in this ETERNAL UNION will persevere by God's Spirit working in them each and everyday.:thumbsup::wavey:
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    It is the eternal purpose of the Godhead to save and keep all of the elect. That is why God elected them.As God works in His children,they mortify all known sin, and grow in grace day by day.
     
  12. drfuss

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    Icon.
    The above scriptures are also used to support OSAS. My question still is do Calvinist believe in the doctrine of eternal security, since they do not believe in the doctrine of OSAS? A yes or no is desired.
     
  13. Yeshua1

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    Interesting, for that is what I hold OSAS to be saying, as we are kept secured by the power of God, and anchored in and thru the Cross of Christ!
     
  14. Yeshua1

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    Might be wrong on this, but would say reformed baptist calvinists tend to see it as God confirming us into image of Chrsit by having us uphold the Law of God, while baptist calvinist would hold that its the grace of God that saved, and his Grace will make sure we stay saved!

    reformed into "lordship" salvation, other side more of free grace, but BOTh should agree that we are savd and kept by the power of god, and that we need to use that liberty to not live as we want, butas He wants us too!
     
  15. Iconoclast

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    I cannot give a yes or no response as I am uncertain in which context you are speaking of "eternal security".Osas has a certain connotation that is well known.
    Everyone wants to use these verses...without being accountable to the holiness without which no man shall see the Lord. Osas says...a person is safe and secure no matter how he lives or what they do.That is not the biblical position which I tried to point to.
     
  16. Yeshua1

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    those advocating that position as being OSAS would be the same as someone not reformed saying that you hold that one is saved by keeping the law...

    Point of OSAS is that the security of the believer in final sense not in ourselves, our good works/behaviour, but in the finished work of christ on the cross, and the atonement for ALL sins [rovided for in that act!
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    There are no....lawless christians.....christians keep God's law,by His grace.
    The false dispensational ideas you have taken in...keep you from seeing what scripture declares on this.I was taught the same way at first.
    You are not alone on this as many churches teach this idea.So you are thinking it is more biblical than it really is.I believe in time you will see how law and grace are there together all through the bible.



    That shows why they lack understanding as no RB believes we are saved by law keeping;
    8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
     
    #17 Iconoclast, May 2, 2013
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  18. drfuss

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    Thank you. I tend to agree with your Biblical position although my terminology may be a little different, since I am not a CAlvinist. I have found that many people say they believe in eternal security, but when I ask them specifics, they do not want to address which eternal security version they believe in.

    This is why I asked the question.

    Thanks again.
     
  19. Iconoclast

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    DRF,
    Labels and positions do exist.What we are all seeking is to be as biblical as we can be....in our conduct....in our devotion and service to God.

    i have found that the "right" position on what is eternally secure is to spend time on two areas.

    1] What Did our Great High Priest accomplish?


    2] Who did he accomplish it for?


    For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified
    14 .

    15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

    16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


    7 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

    18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

    19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

    20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

    Union with Christ
    This is why I hold what I do.:wavey:


     
    #19 Iconoclast, May 2, 2013
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  20. Iconoclast

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    Hagiazo is in the present tense, passive voice which signifies that believers are "works in progress" so to speak. We are all involved in the process of being continually sanctified. This process will not cease until the day we see Jesus face to face and are then glorified forever. The passive voice signifies that the process is being carried out by an outside force acting upon and in believers. The outside force (Who is at the same time the indwelling source - 1Cor 3:16, 1Cor 6:19-note) is the Spirit of Christ, Who is making us holy by exertion of His power, not as a result of our own power. (Cp Jesus in Hebrews 2:11-note]) This process is referred to as Practical sanctification is a day by day (moment by moment) growth in holiness of believers who are in Christ positionally (positional sanctification - see 1Th 4:3-note) In summary, Hebrews 10:14 describes a process whereas Hebrews 10:10-note describes our position in Christ.

    We are continually being brought to the full purpose (telos = goal) for which we were created (Christlikeness) and while we are now in process, one day we will be like Him for we shall see Him face to face (1Jn 3:2-note). Lord, hasten the day. Amen! While the Spirit is continually sanctifying us, that truth does not give us license to live any way we please. Nor does it mean that we simply "let go and let God" as some falsely teach. In a somewhat mysterious way (at least to me) we as believers still have a responsibility to work out our salvation in fear and trembling (Php 2:12-note), even while the Spirit indwelling us gives us the desire and the power to "work out our salvation! (See Php 2:13NLT-note)
     

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