Today's New International Version

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Rippon, Jul 7, 2006.

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  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    I have started a couple threads in the past on this subject , but will renew it again . I personally favor the TNIV . I think it is a fine translation . In the New Testament it differs with the NIV by 7% . And the 7& difference is an enhancement . I don't have any figures for the changes made to the Old Testament but I think it was altered by more than 10% . I only went through the book of Proverbs and compared the NIV with the TNIV . About 60 per cent of the verses were changed -- but marginally so .

    There has been such a hue and cry over the TNIV and I honestly cannot see what all the fuss has been about . The rancor against it has been nonsensical . The translation is solid and sound , all the negative hype notwithstanding .

    I checked some things out with my ESV -- which is usually paired against the TNIV . The two are much closer than all the noise signifying nothing has proclaimed .

    From Acts to Revelation the ESV has 137 references in which it states in so many words : " Or brothers and sisters . " Yes, the word brothers is in the text of the ESV , but the revisionists were honest enough to admit that brothers and sisters is also a valid rendering . Adelphoi means siblings . The word brethren in the KJV etc. does not always carry the meaning of men only . Notice I said "does not always" . Of course it carries that meaning a number of times in which no women are in view .

    If you are curious , the books that had the greatest number of those particular footnotes in the ESV were : 1 Cor. = 25 ; Acts = 23 ; 1 Thess. = 16 ; and James = 14 . Proportionately 1 Thess. has the most because there are only 5 chapters in that book . Acts has 23 chapters and 1 Cor. has 25 .

    I do have some reservations on the renderings of some verses . But I could produce a list even longer for some other Bible translations .

    The NLT and NET have escaped the wrath of man which the TNIV has borne . But why the inconsistency is puzzling to me . Wayne Grudem is the chief spokesperson who brings his scholarly guns out and blasts away mercilessly at the TNIV . James Dobson has had him on his show quite a lot . Dobson does not allow any scholar who favors the TNIV on his big program . That I find is galling . But I digress . Grudem endorses the NET Bible enthusiastically . However , the same alleged " multiplied errors" that the TNIV has are not in his crosshairs for the NET Bible . That is mystifying to me .

    I have made the most astounding discovery -- most laymen critics do not even own the TNIV in book form ! They take their axes and hack away at what they perceive ( and have been led to believe from their respected church leaders ) to be a liberal femi-nazi plot . They mimic the words from their trusted leaders and think they are defending the faith against godless manipulators of God's Holy Word . But it sounds more like the mindset of KJVO folks -- their kissing cousins . " Don't cha dare mess wit mah NIV ! "
     
    #1 Rippon, Jul 7, 2006
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  2. Deacon

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    Much of the negative response to the TNIV is due to its gender neutral stance.

    Rob
     
  3. Phillip

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    Some people claim that the Bible intended the wording to be gender neutral when it was written in Greek.

    Here is the problem with that theory. In some places, they may be correct, but in other places the Greek word of "brothers" is used. There is a Greek word for "sisters", but the original authors choose not to use it. So, by translating it into "brothers and sisters" when the Greek authors could have done the same thing is changing the interpretation from an actual interpretation to an opinion.

    The other reason that the TNIV is catching so much flack is that they promised many people not to publish it in America and only in Europe. They broke their promise and with NIV's huge marketing capability the TNIV will, no doubt, be a number one seller of an inferior translation. IMHO
     
  4. Keith M

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    Re: TNIV

    I do not own a copy of the TNIV. However, I have seen enough of it online that I dislike it for two reasons - its gender neutrality and its dynamic equivalence translation philosophy. Give me a good literal translation (KJV, NKJV, NASB, etc.) any day!
     
  5. Rippon

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    The gender neutral issue regarding the TNIV has been overblown . Again , why hasn't the NLT and NET Bibles gotten more heat on the same subject ? They are more inclined in that direction -- though less than the NRSV .

    The NIVand the TNIV are essentially literal -- not essentially dynamic . There are instances of dynamic renderings but they are not in the dynamic category like the NLT2 . BTW , I really like the NLT2 .

    Again , if one does not own a TNIV , one shouldn't make claims that they have not personally investigated . So far in the mainstream American community of Christianity -- hearsay is the name of the game .
     
  6. IveyLeaguer

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    If it is so close, what makes you favor it over the NIV? Is it the gender neutrality? That IS the implication, intended or otherwise.

    :Fish:
     
  7. Rippon

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    About 70% of the changes were not related to the so-called gender neutrality issue . That majority of the changes moved the TNIV somewhat closer to the ESV in reality .
     
  8. IveyLeaguer

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    Fine, but that doesn't address the point. Do you prefer the TNIV for its gender neutrality? If not, what is it about the TNIV that is so outstanding as to allow you to overcome something as blatantly radical as gender neutrality?

    :Fish:
     
  9. Keith M

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    From the Preface of the NIV:"...they have striven for more than a word-for-word translation." The NIV/TNIV are not classified as literal translations, because they are not. They follow a dynamic equivalence, or thought-for-thought method of translation.

    Also, with the availablilty of online Bible versions (TNIV included) it is not at all fair to condemn someone for criticizing a version when they do not own a printed copy. It is not necessary to own a printed copy of any particular Bible version in order to determine whether one wants to use that version.
     
  10. Rippon

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    Keith , as I have said before , the TNIV is essentially literal in its translation model . I can work up some thread in the future comparing a number of verses which are quite alike between the ESV and the TNIV . If you prefer , I could do the same with the HCS and the TNIV .

    When I use the term essentially literal , I am just going with what the men behind the ESV described as their translation style . They mean it is more form-driven yet allowances are made for dynamic renderings when a literal wording would not make sense . The TNIV is right about in the same spot with the ESV despite all the prevailing contentions that insist that the TNIV is quite different in philosophy .

    What do you say in response to those 137 footnotes in the ESV that I referred to earlier ? If the gender issue is such a concern to you --- how much difference should there be between the TNIV on one side and the ESV and HCS on the other ? There really isn't as much extremity as you imagine . It is a matter of degree and not deserving of all the hoopla .
     
  11. Gold Dragon

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    A more accurate statement would be that the IBS promised it wouldn't publish the NIV Inclusive Language Edition (1996) in North America which was a promise they kept since it was only released in Europe. The TNIV (2002) is a different version with some overlap in edits found in the NIVI, but it was never promised that it wouldn't be published in North America.

    Some may consider this disingenuous and that is a warranted accusation.

    I don't believe the TNIV will be a very big selling translation since it is too similar to the NIV which has a stronger reputation to back it up.
     
  12. Rippon

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    The Egalitarian TNIV

    Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife , and they will become one flesh .

    Genesis 17:4 As for me , this is my covenant with you : You will be the father of many nations .

    Job 34:34 Men of understanding declare , wise men who hear me say to me

    Psalm 4:2 How long will you men turn my glory into shame ? How long will you love delusions and seek false gods ?

    Proverbs 5:1 My son , pay attention to my wisdom , turn your ear to my words of insight .

    Matthew 1:19 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace , he had in mind to divorce her quietly .

    Matthew 7:24 Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock .

    Matthew 14:21 The number of those who ate was about five thousand men , besides women and children .

    Matthew 14:25 And when the men of that place recognized Jesus , they sent word to all the surrounding country . people brought all their sick to him .

    Matthew 19:5 and said , For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife , and the two will become one flesh ?

    Luke 5:18 Some men came carrying a paralyzed man on a mat and tried to take him into the house to lay him before Jesus .

    Luke 11:11 Which of your fathers , if your son asks for a fish , will give him a snake instead ?

    John 8:39 Abraham is our father , they answered ...

    John 10:33 ... you , a mere man , claim to be God .

    John 11:50 ... it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish .

    Acts 9:7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless ; they heard the sound but did not see anyone .

    Romans 5:12 Therefore , just as sin entered the world through one man , and death through sin , and in this way death came to all people , because all sinned --

    1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child , I talked like a child , I reasoned like a child . When I became a man , I put the ways of childhood behind me .

    Ephesians 6:4 Fathers , do not exasperate your children ; instead , bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord .

    1 Thessalonians 2:11 For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children .
     
  13. Faith alone

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    Phillip,

    I just chose this one to respond to - so much to say here, and I haven't read all of the responses. But I thought that your comments bring several things which need to be considered when considering the gender-inclusive issue. I don't necessarily disagree with what you've said here.

    Let me state upfront that I have spent many, many hours investigating the gender-inclusive issue (let me refer to it as G-I to save space) and though I was quite conservative at first and opposed the TNIV, I now agree, in general, with the changes made - about 2/3rd of the time. I own a copy of the TNIV - actually, I gave it to my teenage daughter, who seems to have misplaced it. :D

    But first-of-all, we need to recognize that in NT times that what is referred to is "male-representative" speech was common - as it was until about 40 or 50 years ago in the US. IOW, it was common to refer to "brothers" when intending to address "brothers and sisters." That's why you don't really find "ADELPHOI KAI WHATEVER" anywhere in the NT - just ADELPHOI. And ADELPHOI is recognized by both sides of this issue as legitimately referring to both brothers and sisters. When the CSG (The Colorado Springs Guidelines) - a very conservative set of guidelines for legitimate gender-inclusive speech spear-headed by the CBMW (The Committee for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood) - it allowed for ADELPHOS in plural (ADELPHOI) to be translated as "brothers and sisters." I do not approve of translating the singular sense (ADELPHOS) as "brother and sister."

    Personally, I feel comfortable with referring to "he" or "him" when intending to reference both men and women and with "brothers" to refer to men and women again. But in the past 50 years or so society has changed. We can bury our heads in the ground and ignore it, or try to translate God's Word so as to accurately reflect something that will be properly and accurately understood by today's readers.

    The issues being considered are not ones of a feminism agenda as some think nor are they one of referring to God in a feminine or neuter manner. They are regarding whether, for example, we should refer to someone (singular) with "they" - a plural generic pronoun, since we do not have a generic singular pronoun in English. The English grammars all state that "they," "their" etc. is thegeneric form to be used, and this has been the standard grammatical position for many decades.

    More comments on this later.

    Interesting thread,

    FA
     
  14. Faith alone

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    BTW Rippon,

    Were any of those verses translated inaccurately? ANQRWPOI means "people" not "men." It's where we get out anthropology. I guess I'm not sure what you were saying in that post. :)

    FA
     
    #14 Faith alone, Jul 13, 2006
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  15. Faith alone

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    Cool avatar.

    I do not see any evidence that the TNIV, the NLT or the NRSV are blantantly radical in their gender inclusiveness. Can you list some specific examples where the Greek was mistranslated by the TNIV? That would help us to be more specific in evaluating it.

    Thx,

    FA
     
  16. Rippon

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    I was being sarcastic Faithalone . That score of verses I cited were not in the least egalitarian . I favor the TNIV above other English versions . I certainly agree with most of the renderings when the words "man" and "men" are not employed in the TNIV , NLT , and NET . As I cited , on a number of occasions those very words are put in the text when it is clearly a male reference .
     
  17. IveyLeaguer

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    Thanks, FA. That is the Sea of Galilee at sunset, BTW, and heads and shoulders above the previous avatar (a picture of me).

    No, I can't list any examples because I've not studied it out. In fact, I don't have a copy of the TNIV, as I had heard that it was G-I. So I am not a critic of TNIV and am not qualified for that discussion.

    But I would argue that I need no qualifications to know that G-I is radical. I know that I want no part of a G-I translation, nor would I recommend that for any Christian, and this is why: God, through the scriptures, COMMANDS us, and the culture, to repent and conform to His Word, not the other way around. Were it not for the feminism of the last 50 years, which is ungodly, there would be no need for a G-I translation.

    :Fish:
     
  18. Rippon

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    Keep studying IL .
     
  19. Faith alone

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    IL,

    Thx. There are a couple of websites for checking it out, FYI. AT the CBMW website they list about 900 places in which they do not agree with the TNIV, and they do so by category. The TNIV addresses each of those categories at their website.

    Here'sthe CBMW link:

    http://www.genderneutralbibles.com/

    Go down to TNIV translation Inaccuracies

    Here's the TNIV main page where you can look up any text:

    http://www.tniv.info/

    Here is a link to the most-requested passages explanations:

    http://www.tniv.info/bible/sample.php

    I think if you look at each of those passages you'll get a better feel for their approach to the gender issue.

    IMO the gender issue is over-blown. I think the CBMW has over-reacted. They do have some legitimate concerns. And many people are not aware that the TNIV came out with a more conservative revision last year which the CBMW does not react to as much.

    IMO the TNIV is better than the NIV, in general. The changes they made tended to make the text more literal than the NIV was.

    I'd be interested in what you think about any of thse passages either side cites, and it could be fun to discuss it here.

    Thx,

    FA

     
  20. Keith M

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    Well said, Ivey Leaguer! I absolutely agree! Amen and amen!
     
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