tongues

Briguy,

My given name is Michael. Answer to 'Mike' but not 'Mic'... As in MIke the sound tech is in the booth... The mic's are on the plaform.

I am used to having a 'signature' in the other forums I frequent... I guess I'll have to start 'signing' manual here.

 

Hi Ya'll

I'm new to this board. Very interesting stuff.

Question:

If tongues passed, how are others, who have trusted Jesus Christ for salvation, able to do it?

 

Hi Mike,

Great discussion.

I'm curious...

Has anyone here read Tony Evan's teachings about tongues? And his interpretation of 1 Cor. 13? Although a graduate of Dallash Theo. Seminary, he disagrees with many of his colleagues on the topic.

He argues that the 1 Cor. 13 passage does not teach in anyway that tongues has passed away. In fact, he believes that tongues still exists.

Roscoe

 

Welcome to the BB, NIC. In answer to your question, They can't speak in tongues, at least not in the same way that they did in the first century. Today it is just "gibberish." That is nonsense syllables put together. In the Book of Acts there were actual languages being spoken, unknown to the person speaking it but know to the person hearing it. The modern tongues movement is a phenomena (not of God) that started in the early part of the twentieth century, never heard of before that time, except occasionally in heretical cults.
I hope that helps.
DHK

 

DHK wrote:

Thank you for your answer. How do you think God looks upon those who claim to speak in tongues "as the Spirit gives utterance?"

 

Welcome to the BB, NIC. In answer to your question, They can't speak in tongues, at least not in the same way that they did in the first century. Today it is just "gibberish." That is nonsense syllables put together. In the Book of Acts there were actual languages being spoken, unknown to the person speaking it but know to the person hearing it. The modern tongues movement is a phenomena (not of God) that started in the early part of the twentieth century, never heard of before that time, except occasionally in heretical cults.
I hope that helps.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Gospel Publishing House offers a book that documents cases were modern day tongues where proved to be actual languages. In some of the cases, believers preached the gospel in languages they'd never learned and whole villages(?) were converted.

When I can remember the title of this book, I'll post it. It came out many years ago.


Roscoe

 

Are you thinking about 'What Meanth This?'

Did a search on GPH.org and found it, I think?

"Acts Today: Signs & Wonders of the Holy Spirit"

by Ralph W. Harris
Shares dozens of incredible, true, documented stories of bones being healed, sicknesses cured, sight being restored, paralysis overcome, and many other miracles. Also tells of angels coming to the assistance of those in need, stories of divine guidance and visions, and many other astonishing events. Paper.

http://www.gph.org/store/startitem.cfm?item=020413&cat=CATINDEX&mastercat=&path=CATINDEX


Here's another:

"They Speak with other Tongues"
Description: When it came to miracles, journalist John Sherrill was a skeptic. He lived in the suburbs, attended a mainstream church, and believed in the Holy Spirit---but 20th-century Christians speaking in tongues? That seemed suspicious at best. Then God sent him on a journalistic mission that changed his mind and his faith forever! 176 pages, softcover from Baker.

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/131469278?item_no=91304&netp_id=162907&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW


I haven't read Acts Today, yet. But, 'They Speak With Other Tongues' by Jogn Sherril is a classic.

I think that 'What Meaneth This' is out of print?

 

Thanks, SMM.

Unfortunately, it's neither of the titles you mentioned. I'll check around and see what I come up with. It's possible the book has long been out of print.

Seems to me the author was a doctor or some type of specialist in the medical field.

No, it was not Lillian B. yeoman.

BTW, I remember reading Sherril's book back in the 70s. Powerful testimony. Carl Brumback's, "What Meaneth This?" was my bread and butter in the 80s.

Roscoe

 

Tractster,

1 Cor.13:10 thus reads: "but when the perfect(complete,mature) comes, the partial will pass away."

So what is the "perfect" thing that must come? I believe it was the new covenant that was being matured and perfected as the old, which was not perfect, was slowly fading away(Heb.8:13). And the perfect covenant could not be completed while the first tabernacle was still standing(Heb.9:8). Just as these gifts were incomplete gifts, a shadow, not the realities themselves, so was the law(Heb.10:1). The first covenant had to be set aside first, then that which was perfect and being matured would take its place(Heb.10:9).

Heb.7:19 "(For the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God."

Heb.9:11 "When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already hear, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation."

This new covenant was the church, the bride of Christ as well:
Heb.12:23 "to the church of the first born, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect."

Eph. 4:13 " until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature(perfect), attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."
These works of service(whereas the miraculous works were also a part) were given as the church as it was matured and was being perfected, while they were obtaining unity and waiting on the full measure to be given from God(Eph.4:11,12).
To really receive a better understanding of the contrasts in the covenants and the need and reason it had to be changed, one needs to read the entire book of Hebrews.
So then what does this leave us today?
1Cor.13:13 "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love"(1Cor. 16:14;Gal.5:5,6).

So brothers and sisters, FAITH, HOPE AND LOVE-- FAITH, HOPE AND LOVE. These are the gifts which must be expressed in the church today. These other gifts were used in the early church as it was being matured(perfected) to strengthen Her and edify Her. So, then, let us abide today in FAITH, HOPE AND LOVE!!!

 

Thanks, Eschatologist.

Does this mean then that knowledge has passed away since "we know in part" and "see through a glass darkly"?

I realize that some have inserted "New Testa." into the passage (not you, Eschatologist) as being that which is perfect. But to do so would require poor hermeneutics. My understanding of sound hermeneutics is that we must first determine the original intent of the author. So the question becomes: "Was Paul really thinking about the New. test. when he mentioned 'that which is perfect.'"?

Placing N.T. into the 1 Cor. 13 passage violates basic principles of interpretation. No where in that chapter was Paul speaking about the books of the bible or of the N.T.

Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that he was thinking of the N.T. If so, that would mean that since he wrote much of the N.T., the perfect had come. And if that were the case, then why did he say he knew in part and see through a glass darkly?

Something to think about.

Roscoe

 

Tractster,
Very good response. I can tell that you have done some homework and that also you are a very humble brother in Christ!

You are correct in stating that I was not relating to the new testament itself. What I am talking about is the NEW COVENANT of Grace, which includes the Bride of Christ, as opposed to the imperfect(fleshly) Old Covenant. Paul spoke of a maturing and perfecting process that was going on, which was affecting him and the church. The issue in which christians differ today is when was it perfected. Was it matured or perfected in the early church, or has it yet to be perfected. I, personally, choose to go apart from the masses on this issue. I believe it is already perfected now. Well i know many people will look at the state of affairs of the church today and disagree, but I am not talking about the fleshly body of the church, but the spiritual infrastructue as built by God. There is definitely a difference.

 

Thank you. You're very kind. But I still see through a glass darkly

I don't have all the answers (when I was 20 I knew it all). I spent over 20 years in the Pentecostal/Charismatic church. Over the last 10 years, I began to question things that didn't line up with Scripture. Before long, I saw my thinking change on a number of issues (including eternal security -- the big one). I keep trying to obtain a balance in my views. It's so easy to go to extreme either way.

One thing I've come to believe about studying is ... the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know. God is so BIG! So Infinite! No matter what little I think I've learned (on any topic), there's so much more to be learned.

Forgive the rambling. But thanks for your kind words and your fresh insight into a difficult passage.

God Bless.

Roscoe

 

FYI:

Warning - This is a 'pro-tongues' link:

On-Line Book on Tongues
http://www.bfp-inc.org/pdf_files/tongues.pdf

Offered without further comment.

 

NIC, I suppose God looks at people who mistakenly speak in tongues today as he looks at any of us when we make a mistake. Most tongue speakers are genuine in their intent. They just are wrong about what is a clear scriptual teaching. BTW, welcome to the BB, glad to have you.

To those who entered this discussion late, please go back and read the first couple pages and deal with the depth of the scripture interpretation given. It really starts with that. Tongues have not passed away because I said so or DHK, or Walguy, they are gone because they had a given purpose and that purpose is over. If you buy oil to change your car's oil, you dispose of the containers once you have done the oil change. You don't hang on to containers that serve no purpose. Tongues are like that. They were a "sign" to the nation of Isreal, that they failed and were going to be judged. In 70 AD they fell and tongues were no longer needed, as they were pointing to that event. I hear lots of people make claims and point to books, that make claims, and talk about preachers, who, well --- make claims about tongues and healings. The fact is that with video cameras around every corner and in just about everyones possession there would be thousands and thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of video clips of people speaking in langauges they didnt know, people being raised from the dead, and others growing new limbs. The fact is I have seen none of those things. Also, remember about Spiritual Gifts, we decide when to use them. If there was someone who really had a tongues gift they could gp on Good Morning America and show the world, whenever they wanted. If there was a person with the SG of healing they would get a camera crew and head to hospital after hospital healing ALL, yes ALL that were there. How bout raising the dead??? - No ,the proof is in the pudding, we just see no real proof of any of the "sign" gifts being used today. Now service gifts?, that is a horse of a different color.

BTW, I see the "perfect" as a persons coming "eternal state" either when we die or when Christ sets up His Kingdom on earth, whatever comes first for a person. The "perfect" needs to be associated with a "face to face", that verse can't be removed to try to force other meanings on to the word.

Just some thoughts!

Hi Mike, Thanks for sharing your name

 

DHK and Briguy,

Thank you both for your responses.

New Question:

What are we to make of those who are Baptists who claim to speak in tongues? Are they still considered to be Baptists?

 

Yes, unfortunately there are Charismatic Baptists. They are just deceived Baptists.
DHK

 

WARNING!

if you are seeking the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidece of speaking in tongues, this is not the place to look.

You will only become confused. Go to a church that beleives in it, and talk to them, but this is not the place!!!

Tam,

 

Why search for something that does not exist?
The term "baptism of the Holy Ghost" does not exist in the Bible.

 

A big "AMEN!" He only comes to those who *believe* in Him.

MEE

 

Carol, Carol, Carol, I just am never going to get you to see the error of your ways, am I Carol, I want you to make an observation of this thread. When addressed with the hard hitting scriptures, the tongue speakers have no response. They may fire up a verse or two but never address the verses presented to them. That has to say something about what is going on here. I wish that tongues were around today and that missionaries could go to tribes and speak the native language without any study but that is not what the Bible teaches. Think about it, if the gift of tongues was for today, we wouldn't need for missionaries to go to school for years learning to speak other languages.

Anyway, I know your intents are great and you love the same God as I do. Please never stop searching the Word for it's truths.

Have a great Christmas

In Christ,
Brian