Tony Campolo calls for Revolution in Baptist Churches.

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben W, Jun 4, 2005.

  1. Ben W

    Ben W
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    Another major presenter at the Congress is charismatic modern day prophet Tony Campolo, a frequent visitor to England. There in February to speak to a youth workers' conference, Campolo told his audience and The Baptist Times, newspaper of the Baptist Union, that his central message at the Congress is “that the Church needs to revolutionize the way it works. We have got it wrong ever since Constantine,” he says, “and need to bring about revolution from the bottom up rather than impose it from above.”

    Campolo says he tends to teach churches how to regain their imagination. “We have no positive imagination regarding Scripture,” he says. “We need to get people to imagine what they could do and how their lives could be spent to build the kingdom of God.”

    Campolo believes that imagination also needs to come from spirituality and the 21st century will be a century in which there will be an outburst of the Holy Spirit. “We do not need an objective description of the Cross; we need a subjective understanding of Christ. All through Paul’s letters we read about being in Christ,” he says. “What does it mean to feel the meaning of Jesus? We need to ask the Holy Spirit to enable us to feel what Jesus felt. The imagination has to work on that level. I think pastors are going to have to teach their people to do this, which is why we have to get into spiritual formation … tapping into the ancient techniques of prayer.”

    Along with social action projects, the 21st century Church will be defined by charismatic Christianity, according to Campolo.

    “That doesn’t mean you have to speak in tongues,” he says. “But think of how churches have changed: the churches that are growing are those that have adopted informal worship … Baptist churches that are working through the Holy Spirit are those that will succeed. But these churches need to focus on the individual as well as society in general if they are going to bring about God’s Kingdom on earth,” he says, “We are called to transform individuals in the context of a transformed society.”
     
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    More liberal garbage from a heretic. Campolo is a feel good, relativist, and should be ignored by the Christian world. The very last thing we need is a subjective understanding of Christ when we have an objective standard in the Bible. God is not the author of confusion and that is exactly what Campolo is promoting. This might go over well in the spiritually dead and carnal BWA, but I certainly am not going to embrace this kind of heresy.

    Along with social action projects, the 21st century Church will be defined by charismatic Christianity, according to Campolo.

    “That doesn’t mean you have to speak in tongues,” he says. “But think of how churches have changed: the churches that are growing are those that have adopted informal worship … Baptist churches that are working through the Holy Spirit are those that will succeed. But these churches need to focus on the individual as well as society in general if they are going to bring about God’s Kingdom on earth,” he says, “We are called to transform individuals in the context of a transformed society.”
    [/QUOTE]

    1. Numerical growth does not = spiritual growth nor doing the right thing. Jesus dealt with this heresy in the Bible. Take the narrow road.

    2. We will not bring God's Kingdom to earth and we are not called to transform individuals. That is the work of God.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  3. USN2Pulpit

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    Joseph, even though you have your views about Campolo - and I won't disagree with you - his statement that seems to say doggedly institutional churches with regimented worship services are on the decline while "the churches that are growing are those that have adopted informal worship." We who support the traditional style of worship should at least ask these questions of ourselves:

    </font>
    • Is my worship "style" impressive to God - does it honor Him?</font>
    • Is my worship style black (or red) & white scripture, or is it simply my preference?</font>
    • Is my staunch support of a worship style leading people toward the Truth?</font>
    In the above questions, I'm thinking of the worship service of any church. The question on my mind is, "do we really need the bulletin - where the standard order of service has changed much over the past hundred years or so?"

    Here's the opinion I've arrived at: We must honor God as individuals and as a church. It can be done well in a formal manner, with everything flowing per a schedule - and yes, even tradition. But it can also be done well in a comfortable and informal setting, where God is respectfully worshipped. Or any blend in between. Like-minded believers will gravitate toward the church they're comfortable with.

    In any case, I would not be the one to say that another church's worship is unseemly or unfit for the worship of God - that is, unless they clearly defy the black & white teachings of scripture.
     
  4. KenH

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    Personally, I prefer more formal worship services.

    I agree with Joseph that numerical growth of a congregation may indicate very little about spiritual growth or faithfulness in preaching God's word.

    It's really not that hard to draw a crowd if you offer them entertainment as the entree and feel-goodism as the desert.
     
  5. Kiffen

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    I agree with Ken and Joseph. I prefer formal type liturgical worship with a touch of Baptist Free style. Numbers are also not a determiner of success.
     
  6. shannonL

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    I also agree with Ken and Joseph. Numbers isn't everything. Tony is a false teacher.
    The preaching of the Word should take center stage in any style of Worship. I'm afraid that is becoming less and less the case.
    My mom and dad go to a Bible preaching SB church. They have it all. The last time I was there I heard Carribean style music, traditional, praise and worship, drama skit, special music, announcments,offering. Man my head was spinning by the time it got to the preaching I was wore out.
    Not that all of that stuff is wrong its just that alot of times what gets sacrificed to get all the entertainment in is the length of the sermon.
     
  7. untangled

    untangled
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    This kind of bothers me. Is this guy even Baptist? What does he mean by ancient techniques of prayer? The reason I ask is because there is a United Pentecostal Oneness type church in town that teaches you can "catch" the Holy Spirit by breathing a certain way in prayer. Some groups teach garbage like that.
     
  8. AVL1984

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    Campolo, if he IS a Baptist, isn't like any Baptist I've ever seen or heard.

    I agree with Joseph and others here. I would rather have a formalized service. There is a time and place for a different kind of service. Now, if people want to "blend" their services, they need to find a way to do it decently and in order.

    Just my two cents!
     
  9. shannonL

    shannonL
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    Rick Warren promotes breath prayers in the PDL is that a right or wrong practice maybe I should make this a new topic?
     
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    I have not heard of this. My church went through his purpose plan, but I never actually read his book. Recently, I have found the Bible to be much more interesting and useful. Would you please cite your source on that claim?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  11. KenH

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    Week Four: Work together to write breath prayers that each family member can say when he or she is worried. (A breath prayer is a brief prayer that a person can repeat silently over and over in time with his or her breath.) An ancient breath prayer is "Lord, have mercy." You may use a prayer such as, "Thank you, God, for being with me." Each person can make a small card to carry with his or her breath prayer on it.

    - www.upperroom.org/pockets/litany.asp?ArticleID=136061
     
  12. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Sure does sound wierd to me.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  13. Ben W

    Ben W
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    Sure you can ignore "numerical growth", but as I see it, if a church is tanking backwards in numerical growth that is a definate cause for concern.

    Baptists can be like an Ostrich and stick their head under the sand, hoping that the problem will go away, and it will certainly do that, as the building is sold due to that lack of numbers that we dont care about, and an Assemblies of God group moves in to take its place.
     
  14. Joseph_Botwinick

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    1. If God is in it, he will bless it. Churches don't need to entertain folks and teach heresy to grow the Church. As a matter of fact, they don't even need to grow the Church. That is God's job. The Church's job is to pray, preach the Word of God, and witness to the lost.

    2. You are mistaken in thinking there is a problem. If we are faithful to the Word of God, then the style of worship will become less and less relevant to the growth of the Church. I don't believe in the carnal, wisdom of this world that says we need to embrace the wisdom of the world and embrace heresy (as Campolo does) to grow the Church.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  15. shannonL

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    I agree Ben W. we got to have balance.
    However in the end times people aren't going to want to "endure sound doctrine".
    We do need to be culturally relevant but you just can't let a fallen culture determine how everything should be done in church. i.e go out and take surveys to find out what bugs people in church etc... I think that kinda stuff is bologna.
     
  16. shannonL

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    I trust Tony C about as far as I could spit.
    That guy is a snake in the grass.
     
  17. BillyMac

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    This sounds like the same thing that psychologists and psychiatrists call "self talk" or the repetitions of positive sayings to help those with self esteem issues and other difficulties. I'm not drawing any conclusions on that or the "breath prayer" at this time, but wanted to make that observation.
     
  18. shannonL

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    R.Warren got the idea from a fellow named Brother Lawrence. A french monk who was a cook in a monastary. Lawrence wrote a book about it considered a classic by some I forget the name. It is in the PDL though.
     
  19. Ben W

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    SBC baptisms plateau

    Better evangelistic results is the only major objective of the conservative resurgence that has not been attained, according to Rainer, who also cited the other priorities of the movement as “doctrinal reformation” at the SBC’s six seminaries, “engagement with the culture” on ethical and public policy matters, and a “conservative and conversionary direction” in the denomination’s international missions efforts.

    Rainer writes that conservative leaders rallied grassroots Southern Baptists about the need for change in the denomination by pointing to liberal, mainline denominations that were dying. “And one of the primary benefits of the resurgence, we were told, would be an unprecedented evangelistic harvest in the denomination,” he notes.

    According to Rainer – who has published numerous books on church growth and is widely recognized as one of evangelicalism’s chief experts on the subject – there has been no improvement in SBC evangelism statistics since 1979 when conservatives began to take control of the denomination.

    http://www.mbcpathway.com/otherstories/-1999940267/-1999431794.htm
     
  20. Ben W

    Ben W
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    If you are going to slander Christians, at least give a reference to back up your claims.
     

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