Tony Campolo calls for Revolution in Baptist Churches.

Looking at some earlier posts. I attended Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary with a fellow named Eric.
Eric was a former homosexual who God miraculously saved. He was treated like gold at seminary.
Went everywhere giving his testimony.
He was also a hair stylist. He did my wife's hair all the time
Today he is married with 2 kids. Until this day I can still hear him break out singing in class : Lord prepare me to be a sanctuary pure and holy,tried and true. I can also remember people weeping as they heard him sing it. I was one.
He is a good brother in the Lord.
Sitting in his Salon chair is like sitting in church.
By the way He preaches that its a lifestyle choice not a gene thing.

Tony C has issues about the homosexual lifestyle not being all that sinful the info is out there I read it . He only said that stuff because he is being exposed for what he is which is a liberal theologian at the least.

 

Southeastern is a SBC school.I attended some undergrad classes there not seminary. For the record.

 

How much is tuition now for the undergraduate school?

 

Marcia,

The stuff you mentioned about contemplative prayers so on and so forth. This is why I kind of did a double take when reading about breath prayers. It seems R. Warren has people he would consider friends that are into this sort of thing.

That is one reason why I'm not a big PDL fan.

Also, do you know anything about a guy name Gary Thomas? He is mentioned in PDL. Thomas' website has some of these same lines of thought on prayer and such. Yet his statement of faith is pretty solid. However alot of his recommended reading, which he considers to be "classics" are pure RC stuff. Some of the books are on christian mystic type stuff. Any info, input from anyone?

 

Undergrad tuition was 200 per credit hr. 11yrs ago unless you were a member of a SB church then it was only 100 per. I'm sure it has went up since then. There is a link to the undergrad school from the seminary site.

 

Rather than break-up the quote, I have chosen to bold those areas that I find disagreeable. The numbering of the points is mine. I have numbered the areas so as to respond to each:

1-Agree
2-Agree

3-False: Not all cases can be pigeonholed by this classification. I believe that some are genetic defects in the xy chromosome assignment, some are caused by outside influences, some are by choice for a variety of reasons, and some are caused by errant parental choices to encourage cross-dressing etc. There are many causes for homosexuality and the classifications can only be properly label by medical professionals and NOT by ministers or other sources that come out of the religious or Christian based "experts".

4-Disagree: I am not sure what the second sentence means, but to say that there are not two distinct if not three distinct sexual classifications of orientation is ludicrous. It just simply is not so.

5-Agree.
6-Disagree: Celibacy should never be demanded by any relgious organisation. Homosexuals should never be required to be celibate so that they might be saved, nor should they be required to be celibater after they are saved. The saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ has the ability to transform homosexual desires into heterosexual desires if repentence is genuinely followed.

7-Disagree: Discrimination anywhere anytime is uncalled for by anyone. Period. Homosexuals can teacher in elementary schools without harming children, and in fact do and have for decades if not longer. Homosexuals are NOT automatically pedophiles. Homosexuals and Pedophilia are NOT synonomous contrary to popluar belief. The latter two are again ludicrous for anyone to believe that:
a-the heterosexual family is endangered somehow by the homosexual orientation.
b-"other social institutions" is a vague term that needs clarification before I will issue a blanket acceptance of this statement.

8-Becoming a member of any Southern Baptist church is determinable by a statement of faith as to that person's belief on the Lord Jesus Christ and not on any criteria to denounce any lifestyle or sexual orientation. Do Southern Baptists require heterosexual people to denounce their former adulterous lifestyles as a pre-requisite to church membership??? Do Southern Baptists require recovering alcoholics to renounce their former drinking lifestyles as a prerequisite to church membership??? To require a homosexual to renounce the homosexual lifestyle is discriminatory if other sinful lifestyles are not also renounced. To renounce the lifestyle and then later relapse with a homosexual experience would be grounds for excommunication from the church and disassociation of Christian fellowship.

How are we Christians supposed to witness to those that we cannot get into the church services based on sexual orientation???

Now.... having formed this background, let me address Joseph's question.

I live in a very conservative religious community where there are more Baptist churches than gas stations if that's a good indicator of dispersement. Approach any Baptist church whether Southern Baptist or not and ask about their beliefs for homosexuals attending their churches and they will tell you flatly that if they know that the homosexual is a practicing homosexual then they are not welcome in their services. Ask them too if they have an active ministry that witnesses Jesus Christ for the sins of the homosexual and again they will proclaim that they do not. Ask them if they will go to the gay bars and other areas frequented by homosexuals to witness Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and they will tell you that they would never darken the door of a gay bar for fear that someone might see them and assume that they were gay. Ask them to contribute to an AIDS ministry and they will flatly refuse based on the active sexual life of homosexuals. Ask them to contribute to an ex-gay ministry and I don't think they will, but I have no proof that they won't. I'll just say that it is unlikely given their discriminatory stand. Post on a secular forum in this area that Jesus loves homosexuals and wants them to be saved and you will get not only the slams from the homosexual community which you expect to get, but the Christians who will tell you they are Southern Baptists will cast you in the same light as supporting the homosexual lifestyle.

I'm telling you Joseph I've never seen so many hypocrites per capita in the Southern Baptist community here and it makes my heart sick to think that there is a fertile field for witnessing that is being virtually ignored for the cause of homophobia. Every time the requirement is voiced that they must be free of the lifestyle before Christians become involved.

When Jesus walked the streets of the Holy Land and people sought his healing power and grace, he never said to them to denounce their lifestyle and he would save them or he would not heal them. Some were healed first and THEN saved. That's the example that should be followed today.

 

Sorry.... forgot the link to the page I quoted:

web page

 

I will address each point by the same numbering system you used:

1. agree
2. only slightly disagree (as a matter of fact, I have actually seen this happen, but I disagree that people can change their orientation, but that Jesus does it when he saves them).
3. Agree with the first part, only disagree with the second part if they are being dogmatic about it and saying this is the only reason. Just because a person might be more (what our society socially considers to be) feminine in the way they talk and walk, that does not mean they are gay. Being gay is a lifestyle choice through and through. It is not the way you talk, but a perversion of the sexual lifestyle.
4. I think if you re-read this one again real carefully, it seems to me that they agree with you, but chose to use a bunch of high falutin fancy words to say it and might have confused a lot of people.
5. Agree
6. People (homo or heterosexual) can only live a moral life with the help of the transforming power of Jesus Christ in their lives.
7. There are some areas of employment where a homosexual that is unrepentant is not qualified, such as the ministry. I will hold my comment on the family issue because I am not sure what I think about that. I am not sure where they are going with that. I think I would like to read more on that first before forming an opinion.
8. I agree. Members of the Church are Christians who have been transformed by the blood of Jesus Christ. I am not denying that they will be tempted by the old sinful man (as Paul would call it), but if they claim Christ and live in open rebellion, have no repentance, and still openly embrace the Homosexual lifestyle, then they are not Christians and should not, therefore, be a member of the Church. The same is true of heterosexual sin just as equally (adultery, etc...). This does not mean that they may not stay as a visitor, and listen to the Gospel and have every opportunity available to be convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit, and to be shown the love of Christ as we would show it to the rest of the lost world (as long as they do not try to spread their sin throughout the church). It simply recognizes that open, unrepentant rebellion to God's Word is evidence of a lack of transformation in a person's life, and they should not be members of the church, or be teachers, etc...

Joseph Botwinick

 

I would not have a problem with homosexuals being regular attenders of a church I pastored. I would have a problem with them joining the church unless their was solid fruit that they were saved and have repented of their lifestyle. Either Jesus' blood can cleanse them or it can't.
No sin is so gross that it can't be forgiven.

I'm wholeheartedly against homosexuals teaching school kids. If for no other reason other than it helps to indoctrinate children into believing the lifestyle is okay.Its a free country. I suppose they can't be denied a job. I homeschool my kids so I don't have to worry.

Furthermore, your a little naive in thinking some pedophiles aren't gay. Michael Jackson could quite possibly be a pedophile and he is not being accused of sleeping with little girls. Those two sins are first cousins. The next thing coming down the pike is the acceptance of pedophilia as being within bounds.

Even if you say it is genetic God still didn't create homosexuals. The fall of man is severe it can even effect the genetics of a human being . Yet salvation power is powerful enough to overcome genetic defects.

If Sally has two mommys what do you think the odds are of Sally becoming or not becoming a homosexual? The deck is stacked against Sally.

I can't answer for anybody but me. I have been forgiven much. Therfore, I must be very forgiving and understanding of others and the sin they find themselves in. That being said the old cliche is true "Love the sinner hate the sin"
We should demonstrate that love by reaching out to homosexuals without compromising Scripture.

 

We are getting into worship styles. That is all man made. Personel preferances are not what worship is. We get caught up in styles. I have worshiped in traditional and cont. churches.

We have to realize worship is not about us but about God. I don't think God cares if we sing out of a hymnal or off a screen. Are we giving him the praise?? We just need to stay faithful to his word and not wavier in our faith.

As for as Tony he will have to deal with any false teachings he has on judgement day. We will have to stand there also and see where we have failed. Lets dont get caught up in preferances.

 

Are you saying worship style determines how you handle homosexuals coming to church? I just didn't get what you were trying to say.

I really don't care what Tony C. does I retract anything i said earlier about his views on homosexuality. I'm really not interested enough to look up anything about it.

 

Joseph I will get back to you later, but first:

Shannon, you have it backwards. I didn't say that pedophiles aren't gay. I am certain that there are some, many in fact, who are have that same sex attraction and they act on it. But by and large pedophiles are heterosexuals. The news reports back that up.

What I DID say was that it is not an automatic conclusion that homosexuals are pedophiles. They are not and for you to claim that they are first cousins is ludicrous. Many homosexuals do prefer younger people than themselves, but to say that they prefer children is just not true. That's a phallacy that many uninformed homosexual hating heterosexuals assume without merit.

I refuse to speculate on what Michael Jackson is or is not. MJ has many issues unrelated to what he is on trial for.

"The next thing coming down the pike..." This response shannon suggests that you might be a reactionary whose fears outweigh your logic. Pedophilia will NEVER go where you are projecting it will go, anymore than that claim that a man and an animal will be next.

There are some areas that we yet do not know and may never know. I'd like to think that you are correct and that God did not create homosexuals. I also understand that within the animal kingdom there are genetic errors. What the cause of that is I do not know. But what I do know shannon is that what has been given us is ours to deal with in a way that is pleasing to God. It's not whats wrong with us, it's what we do with what is wrong with us. And I agree that Salvation Power does set things in correct order within that human being or at least the potential for overcoming is provided to every born-again Christian.

Another fallacy, shannon. Interviews with adults having had two mommies indicates that their sexual orientation is no different from those adults who were brought up by a mommie and a daddy.
-------------------------------------------------

This discussion was not meant to be about what homosexuals do, but when you consider that they don't do anything that many many many heterosexuals do in their marriages and so many of them are Christians who are active in their churches and who love God. How do you balance those figures??? I was once told that certain acts of making love were up to that husband and wife and they together balance that with their love for God. How different this view is between the homosexual vs the heterosexual Christian community. I also tell you that preferences are very diverse withing the homosexual community as they are are within the heterosexual community. What you think about when you hear that this person or that one is homosexual isn't always the way things are.

 

I did not know about him and just looked him up. This bio mentions he teaches on spiritual formation, something I am seeing a lot along with CP and the emergent church:

He mentions the Christian "classics" and recommends books by some of the mystics. Usually the words "ancient" and "classics" are being used by people into the CP stuff. Sadly, very solid people can get into this. I think they really don't recognize what it is based on. Problem is, it can give one the feeling of a very "spiritual" experience and you get addicted to it. Techniques do not get us close to God!

 

I am really surprised to see this as part of the SBC statement. I used to believe this before I was a Christian. I do think one is either one or the other. One can change, but that does not mean people are in between the two poles. The most I could say in agreement with this is that in a fallen, tempted way, one might be between the 2 poles, but that it is not natural or normal to be on a continuum.

 

Marcia, I hear a lot of guilt by association in your posts here (even though I see no guilt in some of those associations). But what exactly do you object to about

1) Spiritual Formation
2) Contemplative prayer
3) Reading Christian Classics

besides who they are associated with?

 

I totally agree!

 

ShannonL, I found more on Gary Thomas.

This really sounds New Agey to me. "Connect" to God? Spiritual directors? Path? I also have issues with "dating" God or "being married" to God. This is what Thomas Keating said to me - that doing CP is intimacy with God like conjugal love in marriage. We don't marry God - the church is the bride of Christ, but that is not the same thing!

 

The post I was responding to has nothing to do with gays. That is a sinful lifestyle and we have to take a stand. I was refering to those post that dealt with worship style

 

What I meant by the lifestyles being cousins is the fact that both of them are perverted sexual sins.
History is on my side when it comes to the fact that pedophila could not be considered as acceptable behavior. The fact that the practice of homosexuality is way more accepted today gives credence to that fact. Were guys like Dobson fighting against this issue nationally 50 yrs ago? No Were we having to pass ammendments concerning marriage 50 yrs ago.
I'm not up to par on all the arguments on why homosexuals practice their lifestyle. I'am up to par on what the Bible calls that lifestyle. Sin.
Dude whatever a gay persons preference is. If it is still a preference enjoyed with another man it is sin.
Dont' try to say that I have less concern for a homosexual person's soul just because I see the issue of their sin as more cut and dried issue than yourself.
I say we should do all we can to reach these folk be it minsistries out of our church or whatever.
I've stated that pretty plainly as well.
If I had memebers in a church I pastored who didn't want a gay person coming to the services I would immediatly tell that guy or gal they just need to get right with God and remember where they were when God found them.