TOO FREE or not TOO FREE, that is the question

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by King James Bond, Aug 7, 2005.

  1. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    We can find just as many people claiming they have free-will as we can find those that claim people do not have free-will.

    Some people will try and make a distinction between simple thoughts in our hearts and actual physical actions carried out when defining will.

    Some people will interlink free-will and free-choice.

    How can people prove they have what they claim to have? (free-will)

    How is it that so many people are so certain there are no supernatural powers or forces affecting every thought and every move they make?

    For a person to make such a claim they would have to be able to see and know all things.

    They would have to be certain that not one small power or force exists that has the ability to influence their hearts and minds.

    Some will say that God rules over our actions as He sees fit to do so, but will not rule over our wills in coming to Him.

    Wasn't that the problem with all of us sinful rotten humans in the first place?

    Scripture says our hearts and minds are evil!

    How can we being evil know what is good?

    I can prove by using Scripture that God has indeed influenced minds, hearts, actions, speech and directions of not only paupers, but also of mighty kings, nations, and military empires.

    I can prove with Scripture that demons have taken full control over the faculties of human beings and needed no consent from the humans to do so.

    I can prove by using Scripture that not only are humans used as God wills for His purposes..........even demons, wind, water, dead men, and every other element of His creation obey Him at His command.

    In Acts 26:17-18 Paul was told;

    I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in Me."

    Colossians 1:12-13

    "...the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. For He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son He loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

    Peter 2:9

    "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light."

    For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath, but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

    Unbelievers are held in the claws of Satan and they are not even aware they are blind.

    God rescues those that He wills regardless of mans bent, wretched, and sinful will.

    Would someone show me where mans will cannot be influenced and is really free.

    God bless you all! [​IMG] KJB
     
  2. ILUVLIGHT

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    James;
    Just as you can't prove your theories of being controlled by a higher power, or not having any responsibility for your own actions. The idea that every thought is controlled lays all the blame on the controller. So who's in control of our sins. Are we responsible or not?.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  3. whetstone

    whetstone
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    This is an evasive answer.

    James isn't asking a philosophical question. He's telling us that he has scriptural evidence that our actions are strongly influenced by God, and wants to know if there is any evidence to the contrary.
     
  4. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Whetstone;
    There is a huge difference between "Influence" and "Dictated".
    James seems to believe that it is impossible to be able to choose Christ. That we have anything to do with our own trust in Jesus Christ. This idea is obsurd to me. The heart cannot trully love another with out being willing first. Being made willing is not being willing.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  5. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    Hello ILUVLIGHT,

    You posted,

    Just as you can't prove your theories of being controlled by a higher power, or not having any responsibility for your own actions. The idea that every thought is controlled lays all the blame on the controller. So who's in control of our sins. Are we responsible or not?.

    I trust Scripture as my standard of what is truth.

    So that is what I would like to use for either the defence or the attack of the "free-will" doctrine.

    The blame, (according to Scripture) will rest with people for what we have done in or bodies.

    Now that does not mean that God will not hold others responsible for their actions if they have indeed caused others to stumble or sin.

    God can't be blamed even if He caused people to lie, murder, or steal.

    He can use His agents to do all these things.

    God is not responsible to the creature for anything! That means He does not have to give any response or defend His actions.

    There is no higher power that can cause Him to have to respond.

    People are responsible because they will have to respond. Why? He will make them.

    You also posted;

    James seems to believe that it is impossible to be able to choose Christ. That we have anything to do with our own trust in Jesus Christ. This idea is obsurd to me. The heart cannot trully love another with out being willing first. Being made willing is not being willing.

    I do not say it is impossible to choose Christ.....I have chosen Him.

    But I have only chosen Him because God has worked in me first.

    I am not saying people do not have options in front of them to choose from.

    People make choices all the time..and people have wills.

    People do not love because of free-will.

    Scripture says we love God because He first loved us. That means He is the cause of our love for Him.

    I see that the reason you wish to hold on to "free-will" may be because it is a good defence in keeping God holy.

    God does not need such a defence and I will prove it on my next post.

    whetstone,

    Yes your post is correct! I have much evidence from Scripture that wills are influenced. Those that hold on tight to a free-will doctrine have no evidence at all that they have it.

    God bless! regards, KJB [​IMG]
     
  6. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    ILOVELIGHT,

    Let me please give one very easy to understand portion of real history.

    I would like to use it to disprove that God will be to blame for anything.

    It is about some things that took place on earth, but were planned in the heavenly realm without the consent of those on the earth.

    We are in Job 1:8 when angels were presenting themselves.

    Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

    Job belongs to God. God created men, Satan did not create men. And God said, (my servant).

    Satan responds with facts of truth that apply to all people;

    "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

    For God to put a hedge around Job, He would have to be able to control the wills of those around Job to keep them away.

    It also shows that it is God who blesses the hands of workers.

    We will see now that the Lord will take away His hedge of protection.

    The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."

    Now you can rest assured that Satan had no power of and on his own to do anything at all.

    And Satan still had no power over the man himself.

    But God had just given "everything he has" into the hands of Satan.

    You may very well say "well God allowed that"

    Yes He did allow it, and He did not have to.....so to say He allowed it, is the same as saying He decreed it to be so.

    After God had lowered His hedge of protection, we see disaster after disaster come upon all that Job owns faster than his messengers can bring him the news.

    Raiders (Sabeans and Chaldeans), fire from God, and wind wiped out and destroyed everything Job had......including his ten children!

    Could God have protected them all? Of course He could have!

    But He did not....does that make God guilty of anything? NO WAY and Job knew it!

    You can be certain that God will hold the Sabeans, Chaldeans, and Satan for their dastardly, wretched, filthy actions of slaughter, stealing, and destruction.

    And I bet Job also blamed these scoundrels for their actions.

    But Job knew Who was behind all things and his actions and words hold true;

    At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship and said:

    "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised."

    In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.

    Job knew that God's Sovereign will is behind all things that take place! He gives, and he takes! All things are His!

    And although many others will be held responsible for their actions...

    God will not! And by not blaming God....we do not sin!

    Hope that helps.....let me know if you have questions...

    God bless you! [​IMG] KJB
     
  7. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    I have a question Mr Bond.

    Why did you start this post?

    Oh...so maybe we could all work to seek and find truth?

    Ok thanks! :eek:
     
  8. ILUVLIGHT

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    James;
    Sorry it takes me so long to respond. I have been burried in my work again.
    You said;
    God does not make people lie murder or steal. That concept isn't even biblical. Maybe you could show just where God's word says that He made anyone sin.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  9. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    Mike,

    No problem, I get buried in work as well.

    I posted;

    God can't be blamed even if He caused people to lie, murder, or steal.

    You posted;

    God does not make people lie murder or steal. That concept isn't even biblical. Maybe you could show just where God's word says that He made anyone sin.

    The post of mine was not to prove that God causes or does not cause anyone to sin.

    I was only answering your post;

    Just as you can't prove your theories of being controlled by a higher power, or not having any responsibility for your own actions. The idea that every thought is controlled lays all the blame on the controller. So who's in control of our sins. Are we responsible or not?

    My statement was to show that even if He did cause someone to sin....who could blame Him?

    What would men do...take Him to court? Put Him in jail?

    But I can prove that people can be and are controlled by higher powers. That is, if you trust the Word of God as proof.

    People can be held responsible because God has the power to hold all people. Who will escape His arm?

    God was the ultimate cause of everything I just posted to you in the history of Satan, Job, his children, his servants, his property, Sabeans, Chaldeans, fire, wind...etc.

    The question I would ask you is this;

    If a rotten man is planning to rape an innocent young girl......does God have the power to stop him from doing it?

    1: Yes
    2: No

    I assume that you would anwer yes to that question.

    If He is capable of preventing the rape but does not prevent it, does that mean He condones rape? Of course not!

    If He is all powerful and has the capability to stop evil but does not stop evil is He evil? No.

    Does God have the ultimate power to bind Satan to some distant planet out of harms way? Of course He does.

    I also never said people will not be held responsible for their actions.

    All people are sinners. The world already stands condemned.

    If God allows sin...why is that not construed the same as He decreed it to be?

    If God has allowed a sin to take place...it is the same as He decreed it to take place, for if He did not want it to take place, it would not have for He would have stopped it.

    Regards, KJB [​IMG]
     
  10. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi James;
    Men can do nothing about what God does, but God does not do anything that is unjust. He is a Just God. In order for this to be true God limits Himself and controls Him self.
    Allowing sin to happen and predestining it are two different things. As long as there is sin in the world we can be sure Christ hasn't set up His kingdom.
    Sin is our choice even after Salvation we all still sin, because there is no man with out sin.

    Sin exist souly for the purpose of mans choice of who he serves. God Himself designed our world to be this way, because with out choice even God could not be sure of our Love for Him. He has allowed Satan to be the ruler of this world for a time it was never decreed.

    Man has a choice between good and evil The choice was placed before man in the garden.

    A decree is law and there is no such law.

    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  11. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    Mike,

    Men can do nothing about what God does, but God does not do anything that is unjust. He is a Just God. In order for this to be true God limits Himself and controls Him self.

    The Pharoah of Egypt had a hard heart. (regardless of who made it that way).

    Just because one man had a hard heart, God brought disaster to an entire nation. You can be certain there was severe suffering.

    Notice God did not just punish the king. He did all kinds of other things!

    God told Moses and Aaron to smite the waters and turn them into blood, flies, knats, sick livestock, boils upon man and beast, hail, darkness, and God killed every Egyptian firstborn in the land (humans and beasts) because one king had a hard heart.

    You can be certain that some of the firstborns were only infants. Some of them probably had only enough power in them to soil themselves, cry, eat, and sleep.

    May I ask you if God was just in this act?

    Since God killed all kinds of people (including infants) would you say He is just? Why?

    He also drew the Egyptian army into the sea to drown them.

    In your post you say He limits and controls Himself. How do you know that?

    Who is ruler and controller over all things? God, man, woman, Satan, angels, animals?

    You said;

    Sin exist souly for the purpose of mans choice of who he serves. God Himself designed our world to be this way, because with out choice even God could not be sure of our Love for Him. He has allowed Satan to be the ruler of this world for a time it was never decreed.

    God could not be sure? The One that can see all things.

    If God has allowed something to happen......why don't you call that a decreed part of His will?

    If He willed it to take place it will take place.

    You posted;

    Man has a choice between good and evil The choice was placed before man in the garden.

    Prove it! Show substantial PROOF that men have a choice! Have you ever heard the phrase;

    "For all have sinned and fall short of His glory".

    Gots to go for now...God bless you! [​IMG] KJB
     
  12. Michael52

    Michael52
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    Dt 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    Simple. God always lays choices before us. God knows the choices we will make before we make them(He knows EVERYTHING). Yet, we are still responsible for those choices and their outcomes.
     
  13. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    Michael,

    And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

    "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

    "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

    And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind."

    Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.

    "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

    "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

    " My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

    "I and the Father are one."

    "The disciples came to him and asked, 'Why do you speak to the people in parables?'

    He replied, 'The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

    Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

    This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand."

    In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes.

    Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them."

    "What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."

    [​IMG] KJB
     
  14. Joman

    Joman
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    King james, you haven't explain DT.30:19
     
  15. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    Joman,

    That verse proves nothing about free-will.

    I implore you to evaluate in your mind this following scenario;

    I myself take a flight to Mecca Saudi Arabia and prop myself up in an area with the largest amount of gathered people. This might by a Muslim mosque at prayer time.

    I could yell out to all of them;

    TURN TO JESUS CHRIST FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS!

    I would ask you this;

    Do you really think they have free-will? Do you think that everyone of them in a single moment could all freely-will to turn to Jesus Christ?

    Or would you be more inclined to say that many, if not most of them are BOUND into a perception of what they believe to be true even though it is not true?

    Just because a call is given for people to repent, it in no way implies they are capable to repent.

    Do you trust this following verse;

    If the Good News we preach is veiled from anyone, it is a sign that they are perishing. Satan, the god of this evil world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe, so they are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News that is shining upon them. They don't understand the message we preach about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4


    In Ephesians 2:2 Christians who had been delivered from the dominion of darkness are told;

    "You all once walked according to the age of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience."

    If people are UNABLE to see......what makes them see to make a good choice between life and death?

    Regards, KJB [​IMG]
     
  16. rc

    rc
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    King james, you haven't explain DT.30:19

    This is a common layman's mistake. This is an indicative STATEMENT. It does not say anything of the ABILITY of the people to do anything, it is not an imperative.
     
  17. Michael52

    Michael52
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    Sure, if I call someone to repent, I can't expect someone to respond. It doesn't matter whether they are incapable or capable. God, on the other hand, knows everyones "capabilities."

    Why would God call someone who is incapable? Now, if God expects someone to do something he has not given them the ability to do, then is God just wasting His "breath?" What's the point? :confused:

    I really wish I had the capability to clearly say what I'm trying to say. I guess my difficulty is that I don't clearly know what I'm saying. I'm just "thinking out loud."

    Praying God will someday give me the ability! [​IMG] ;)
     
  18. webdog

    webdog
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    Sure, if I call someone to repent, I can't expect someone to respond. It doesn't matter whether they are incapable or capable. God, on the other hand, knows everyones "capabilities."

    Why would God call someone who is incapable? Now, if God expects someone to do something he has not given them the ability to do, then is God just wasting His "breath?" What's the point? :confused:

    I really wish I had the capability to clearly say what I'm trying to say. I guess my difficulty is that I don't clearly know what I'm saying. I'm just "think out loud."

    Praying God will someday give me the ability! [​IMG] ;)
    </font>[/QUOTE]I hear you loud and clear [​IMG]
    You are correct. God wouldn't command us to do something we are unable to do. All through the Psalm's we hear how fair and just God is. Calvinists will come back with the "fair is everyone going to hell" statement, which I agree with, but God has and will make a means for ALL men to accept Him through the atonement of Christ's blood. He leaves that choice up to us.
     
  19. rc

    rc
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    The command is for those who have been given the ability. But you can not take an indicative and imply an imperative. This is what you are doing.

    You have to go outside the text to prove this and no one has EVER given one imperative that clearly states ALL mankind HAS THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE GOOD. There is not one verse in the Bible that states this. That is the problem. Yet there are many that show natural man can not choose good. With this antecedent the indicative can be clearly seen as a commandment to those who have been given the ability to follow. But not all.

    If I see a squirrel and a bird next to each other in the grass and I yell "fly away!" Does the squirrel have the ability? No. But the bird flies away.... The indicative statement is just that, I said "fly away" and does not imply the ability at all to the squirrel or actually not even the bird for that matter.
     
  20. webdog

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    This is ridiculous. A lost man and a born again man are still both "men". If you yelled to the squirrel "all birds fly away", the squirrel would know it doesn't have the ability. If you yelled "fly away" to BOTH, both would have to have this abiltiy. You make God out to vaguely imply scripture is not for ALL men, meaning it is science fiction and a lie to those who aren't your "elect".
     

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