Too free or not too free, that is the question.

I really get tired of people proclaiming free-will.

One person on this board claims that God wants to save all people meaning each and every person.

He first claims the way God does this is He "enlightens" each and every man. He does this for a reason....to save them.

But the problem we have is it does not save everybody.

A little later we find out that not all men are enlightened enough to save them.....so God's enlightenment must not be very light.

It would seem God just has not figured out who needs a little more and which others need a little less.

Isn't enlightenment enlightenment anymore? Is there like a lighter enlightenment and a darker enlightenment? If people are enlightened cant they see?

The same person claiming that God wants to save everybody and "enlightens" them for the very purpose of saving them......can't explain why enlightenment has no effect. So along we go on his next rabbit trail.

God wants to save each and every person so He draws them to Himself. Yea thats it! He draws everybody to Himself.

The problem is this guy can't show that ALL people are drawn to God. As a matter of fact we can find many in the world that are very away from God and not drawn to Him at all.

So what kind of draw is a draw that does not draw? Help me out here please!

We find out that the drawing just does not work because some people just do not come. So here we go on another rabbit trail.

It must be education! Yea...thats it...education.

God educates but some people do not learn.

Here after all these rabbit trails we find our ALL POWERFUL MIGHTY GOD unable to enlighten when He enlightens, unable to draw when He draws, and unable to educate the uneducated. You guessed it.....here we go on another rabbit trail!

It must be free-will he claims! Yea thats it! He gave people free-will!

So now what this person claims is that it is free-will that brings a person to salvation.

All the drawing, enlightenment, and education has been thrown out for free-will!

It seems as if drawing, enlightenment, and education only have effect on those that are coming, enlightened, and educated!

What kind of God is this with no power to draw, enlighten, and educate.....but is rather wholly dependent on the will of people?

Why did He draw if it has no effect? What does He enlighten people when it makes no difference? Makes no sense at all!

And how does this man KNOW he has free-will in the first place?

Let me tell you folks.....God draws to save! He enlightens with effect!

Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son so He can give glory back to you. For you have given Him authority over everyone in all the earth. He gives eternal life to each one you have given Him.
Free-will?

So you see, God shows mercy to some just because he wants to, and He chooses to make some people refuse to listen. Free-will?

Well then, what shall we say about these things? Just this: The Gentiles have been made right with God by faith, even though they were not seeking Him. Free-will?

"If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Free-will?

I said, `Even if Balak were to give me a palace filled with silver and gold, I am powerless to do anything against the will of the LORD.' I told you that I could say only what the LORD says! Free-will?

So the LORD brought the king of Babylon against them. The Babylonians killed Judah's young men, even chasing after them into the Temple. They had no pity on the people, killing both young and old, men and women, healthy and sick. God handed them all over to Nebuchadnezzar. Free-will?

In the first year of King Cyrus of Persia, the LORD fulfilled Jeremiah's prophecy by stirring the heart of Cyrus to put this proclamation into writing and to send it throughout his kingdom. Free-will?

"But true wisdom and power are with God; counsel and understanding are His. What He destroys cannot be rebuilt. When He closes in on someone, there is no escape. If He holds back the rain, the earth becomes a desert. If He releases the waters, they flood the earth." Free-will?

"Yes, strength and wisdom are with Him; deceivers and deceived are both in His power. He leads counselors away stripped of good judgment; He drives judges to madness. He removes the royal robe of kings. With ropes around their waist, they are led away. He leads priests away stripped of status; He overthrows the mighty. He silences the trusted adviser, and He removes the insight of the elders. He pours disgrace upon princes and confiscates weapons from the strong." Free-will?

"He floods the darkness with light; He brings light to the deepest gloom. He raises up nations, and He destroys them. He makes nations expand, and He abandons them. He takes away the understanding of kings, and He leaves them wandering in a wasteland without a path. They grope in the darkness without a light. He makes them stagger like drunkards." Free-will?

ALL GLORY TO GOD! HIS WILL be done on earth as it is in Heaven!

KJB

 

ILUVLIGHT,

Brilliant! So now you have proved free-will! Thats how you do it.

I say,

I really get tired of people proclaiming free-will.

And you reply,

Wow! Magnifico!

There you are folks.....a perfect example of a belief in free-will with not one shred of evidence to back it up......not only does ILUVLIGHT have nothing to defend such a belief......ILUVLIGHT goes against all the Scripture posted on the first thread showing God directs, moves, influences, and has TOTAL control over people!

Why don't we all throw out Scripture and believe ILUVLIGHT!

ILUVLIGHT....while I value your right to have your own conscience with your own beliefs........I do not value your belief.

Your belief in free-will is tantamount and just as valid as a garden snail believing radio waves don't exist.

ILUVLIGHT,

The person that was telling me out of context that God wants to save everybody used verse portions like (God draws all men to Himself) and (God enlightens every man) as the focal point of his entire argument.

If people are rebels....and has resisted....then the fact is GOD did not draw or enlighten evry man...Get it?

He is powerless against rebels! So who does He draw? Those coming already? Is that supposed to be a show of power? Watch everybody while I draw the willing. Ewwwwwww so powerful!

I can draw water out of the sky to me also....I just wait for it to rain and draw it. What amazing power I have.

You make no sense at all.

We can change lote of verses for you.

For it is by FREE-WILL you have been saved, through faith--and that ALL OF YOURSELVES, it is not a gift from God--not by works so you all can boast.

Does not sound right for some reason.

You speak just as the other guy does....of a God with no power. A God that is helpless. His enlightenment does not enlighten and His drawing just can't draw.

So we are down to that self declarated self righteous battle cry again of that thing that is without proof.

We are saved by FREE-WILL is your cry! We will start changing all bumper stickers right away. From "Jesus saves" to "Free-will saves".

Ray,

You are right......"might believe".....but then again "might not".. all as God wills.

jarhed,

By your own words I will take that to mean I will not regard what you say as meaningful unless of course you speak the Words of God.

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. Free-will huh?

Boast guys boast!

"For whom He foreknew, He also foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He foreordained, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified."

Lets hear some more boasting! Glory to Free-will!

"He is the stone that makes people stumble, the rock that will make them fall." They stumble because they do not listen to God's word or obey it, and so they meet the fate that has been planned for them. But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are a kingdom of priests, God's holy nation, his very own possession. This is so you can show others the goodness of God, for He called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.

Let us hear some more boasting! No one calls us out of darkness....we came out because of our glorious free-will! Praise free-will!

At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. "Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Glory to free-will that wonderful saving power!

Come on you free-willers....think! Think!

KJB