top 5 against calvinism?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by timothy 1769, Mar 11, 2003.

  1. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769
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    please give me the top 5 arguments/scripture references against calvinism. i'm a relatively new christian, and i think i might have been sucked into a calvinist viewpoint via r.c. sproul tapes before i was really able to discern things very well for myself.

    so, if you're not calvinist, here's a big chance to actually correct someone of his error. i'm listening and will seriously consider whatever you have to say.

    thanks!
     
  2. Frogman

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    Five is the number of Grace. The best thing to do, IMO, brother is to prayerfully read your Bible and follow the leadership of the Holy Spirit. I know what I believe and I believe you are about to be stampeded. So, remember David chose five stones, but only one delivered him.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  3. William C

    William C
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    Tim,

    My testimony is very similar to yours. I was a Calvinist for over 9 years after reading John MacArthur and R.C. Sproul. Ironically enough, it was only after I followed Frogman's advice of studing the scripture for myself with the guidance of the Holy Spirit that I learned Calvinism falls short of representing the true teachings of scripture.

    I will give you five reasons not to believe in Calvinism if you want me to expound on any of these five reasons let me know and I would be more than happy to do so:

    1. Total Inability (Depravity) is not supported in Scripture. The Bible talks about man being completely unrighteous, dead in our sin and unwilling to seek God. But it never teaches that man is unable to respond in faith to general call of the HS through the gospel message. That is an assumption that Calvinist bring to these texts. The Bible calls people to faith and repentance as if they are capable of that response, to assume otherwise must be clearly shown in the text, it is not!

    2. Total Depravity's major scriptural support is found in John 6. But the truth of the matter is that Jesus is speaking to Israel in John 6. We can see in John 12:37-41 that most of Israel has been hardened and cannot believe until the full number of Gentiles have been grafted in (Romans 10 and 11). So these passages must be understood in their unique context. When Jesus says things like "He who has ears let him hear." Calvinist apply that to their soteriology but in reality Jesus is speaking about those who have been hardened as apposed to those who have not as spoken of in Matt. 21; Mark 4:10; and Acts 28:26-28, it is clear in light of these passages that Jesus was not referring fallen humanity born "total unable" because of the Fall as Calvinists contend.

    3. The teaching of Israel's hardening makes no sense in light of Calvinism's teaching of Total Inability. If men are born deaf, blind and unable to understand and turn to God as Calvinism's "Total Inability" teaches then why would God need to "hardened" Israel by making them deaf and blind and unable to understand the gospel? Why make a deaf man deaf? Why veil the gospel in parables from people who according to Calvinists are total unable to understand it anyway? It makes no sense. Plus, look at Acts 28:26-28 and you will see that men without the hardening are able to see, hear understand and turn. And guess what, according to Paul, the Gentiles will listen, as opposed to hardened Israel who will not.

    4. Total Depravity (Total Inability) is the foundation of the whole Calvinistic line of reasoning. Total inability necessates the "effectual calling" (irresistable grace) because without it man is totally unable to believe--- that necessitates "unconditional election" in which God determines who will receive the effectual calling. If there is no scriptural foundation for Total Depravity there is no foundation for Calvinism.

    5. The geniune call of the gospel to all men. Even Calvinist confirm that the Gospel calls out for all to come. Some Calvinists even confirm that the HS also calls all to come as seen in Rev. 22:17. Here are some other texts that lead us to believe that humanity must make a choice:
    - “I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life” (Deut. 30:19)
    - “Choose this day whom ye will serve” (Josh. 30:19)
    - “Repent…unless you repent you shall perish” (Mt. 4:17; Lk. 13:3)
    - “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31)
    - “Repent and be baptized” (Acts 2:38)
    - “With the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:10)
    - “Come unto Me” (Mt. 11:28)
    - “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come” (Rev. 22:17).

    There are dozens more that even by Calvinist's own admission lead people to think that their choice really is the deciding factor in their salvation. Does scripture deceive the lost into thinking that it is their choice, only to straighten them out once they are mature enough to understand the dogma of Calvinism? No. Scripture is consistant. If it leads people to believe that their choice is the deciding factor, then it is true.

    We know that God wants all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, Matt. 23:37). We also know that "He bound ALL men over to disobience so that He might have mercy on them ALL." (Roman 11:32). Either God's plan goes against His wants and desires or God also wanted man to choose for Himself who he would serve.

    The scripture calls us to "consider the cost" of being a disciple. God also tells us to "reason it out" and make our decision. Unless scripture clearly teaches that we are somehow unable to "consider the cost", "reason it out", "choose to follow", or "have faith in Christ". We must believe that we are responsible and capable of doing just that.

    I hope this helps. Like I said, I will be more than happy to clarify or eleborate on any of these points. There is sooo much more that could be said.

    God Bless,
    Bill [​IMG]
     
  4. Ray Berrian

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    timothy 1969,

    You are correct. Dr. R.C. Sproul's picture on one of his books is the face of theological deception and his views are welcomed into the custody and arms of the greater deceiver the prince of darkness, the evil one.

    Augustine the father of the early, Five Points of Calvinism has been the guiding light for the latter John Calvin. Both were entrenched in Roman Catholic preconceived ideas as to God. Augustine drank in at the fountain of the god of Aristotelian and Socratic philosophy. His commingling of Biblical truth and man made philosophy has been regurgitated on this planet the errors of a misfired theology.

    Calvinism is highlighted with extreme sovereignty and you will note in "Calvin's Institutes" the meagerness of God's love toward sinners. His view summons our minds to God's willingness to damn the majority, without any sense of empathy.

    The Apostle Paul warns us in Colossians 2:8 of a soon deception coming from the likes of Augustine. 'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain conceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'

    I. Ray Berrian, Th.D.
     
  5. KenH

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    And there's the stake through the heart of the false teaching of salvation by free will. You teach that God desires but He cannot have. You subjugate the desire of the Almighty God to the corrupt will of fallen man. Shame on you, Brother Bill and your fellow travelers. Shame on you. [​IMG]
     
  6. KenH

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    Unfortunately, that fits very well with the purveyors of the false teaching of salvation by fallen, corrupt free will. [​IMG]
     
  7. William C

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    And there's the stake through the heart of the false teaching of salvation by free will. You teach that God desires but He cannot have. You subjugate the desire of the Almighty God to the corrupt will of fallen man. Shame on you, Brother Bill and your fellow travelers. Shame on you. [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]Ken, Ken, Ken, of all the arguments I made you picked the one that is the most clearly supported in scripture than any of the rest.

    I said, "God wants all to be saved." Let's just see what the bible says to confirm that statement shall we:

    1 Tim. 2:3 This is good, and it pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    I could stop there but I will go on:

    I Peter 3:9: The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

    Or how about:

    Matt. 23:37
    "O Jerusalem! Jerusalem that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, yet you were not willing!


    Now Ken, who is sad? [​IMG]
     
  8. The Archangel

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    Ray,

    You are correct. Dr. R.C. Sproul's picture on one of his books is the face of theological deception and his views are welcomed into the custody and arms of the greater deceiver the prince of darkness, the evil one.

    Oh now really! Have you ever met the man? Has he wronged you in some way? Do you have a tangible charge against him? REMEMBER: he is your brother in Christ. If you have a real charge against him, follow the Biblical guidlines for resolving it.

    Or is it the case that you don't agree with him and, therefore, you charge him with being Satan's minion?

    Calvinism is highlighted with extreme sovereignty

    I hate to mention this, because it will sound flippant--which I don't mean to be, but: The Bible is too!

    Calvinism is highlighted with extreme sovereignty and you will note in "Calvin's Institutes" the meagerness of God's love toward sinners. His view summons our minds to God's willingness to damn the majority, without any sense of empathy.

    How is it that saving anyone is "meager" in love? Especially when we all deserve death--and that immediatley! Where is it written that God has to save any?

    Ray, I must admit I enjoy discussing theology with you. That is why I want you not to misunderstand my next couple of statements. They may sound harsh--PLEASE beleive me--they are not intended so.

    Ray, is it possible that you bring an a priori position to the Bible? Is it possible that your position is that God must save some, all, or the majority?

    Is it ever stated in Scripture that God wills to Save every person. I know what you're going to say: God is not willing that any should perish--and, I concede, that is a good arguement. However, unless you are a universalist, you think that not all will be saved. So this verse shows one of two things: God is not willing that any be lost and He is unable to save all. OR He is unwilling that any will be lost but some will be lost. Conclusion: Since God is God and He is able to do all things, we must concede that option one is out. That leaves us with option two--which sounds contradictory.

    That verse (2 Peter 3:9 (ESV)
    The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
    )
    is in a highly eschatological passage. But, isn't it possible that the "All" does not mean every single person?

    Let's look at the givens:

    1. All are on a road to damnation.

    2. Some will be saved

    3. God gives the grace that will save those "some."

    4. That grace cannot, in any circumstance, be worked for.

    Therefore, God, by His grace, will save some.

    There are other passages in Scripture that "all" does not have to mean every person. Why have it mean that here?

    Why is it then that we (and I do it too!) say: "Isaiah 29:16 (ESV)
    You turn things upside down!
    Shall the potter be regarded as the clay,
    that the thing made should say of its maker,
    "He did not make me";
    or the thing formed say of him who formed it,
    "He has no understanding"?


    And why do we say what God MUST do with the whole of humanity when Romans says this:
    Romans 9:21 (ESV)
    Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?


    Isn't it the case that God has complete, total, and sovereign rights over us because He is the Creator and we are the creature? Of course it is.

    I am a reluctant Calvinist. I wish things were not as the Bible reveals them. However, I don't get to make that choice. It is up to me, and you, as followers of Christ to bring ourselves into submission to Him and His word on all things.

    I'm sure that you agree about God and His right to be Sovereign. Now I must ask: Why, then, is it that you see His sovereignty limited in some way as it relates to salvation?

    Again, this is not meant to be mean or anything. I am trying to have an honest discussion.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
  9. KenH

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    I am sad that you believe that Almighty God can fail. You have my sympathy. [​IMG]
     
  10. timothy 1769

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    perhaps god wants everyone to be saved, but wants something else more?
     
  11. KenH

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    What could be more important, if God desires for everyone to be saved, than to carry out His desire for everyone to be saved? Surely you are not saying that God doesn't care if someone ends up in Hell. :confused:
     
  12. romanbear

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    The seven points of the tulip;


    1.Because the whole race has fallen in Adam and become corrupt and powerless to believe,God draws out of condemnation those whom he has chosen unto Salvation,passing by others.

    my input;
    This statement above clearly indicates God as a respecter of persons.

    2.The Children of believers,as long as they do not manifest the contrary,are to be reckoned to be elect.

    My input;
    this above is inherited election

    3.God has decreed to bestow faith and perseverance and thus save those whom he has chosen to salvation.

    My input;
    again in paragraph 3 God is indicated as a respecter of men.

    4.God delivered up his Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross to save only the elect.

    My input;
    Again respecter of person

    5.The Holy Spirit externally through the preaching of the gospel,works a special grace internally in the hearts of the elect, giving them power to believe.

    My input
    A special grace is not regeneration.This word means saved

    6.Those whom God has decreed to save are supported and persevered by the Holy Spirit so that they cannot finally loose their true faith.

    My input;
    this is not in the Bible.Totally unbiblical

    7.True believers do not carelessly pursue the lust of the flesh,but work out their own salvation.

    My input;
    A clear indication of works which are necessary.This is contradictory to the Calvinist I write to today.

    Each and every one of them are non Biblical even Augustine believed in freewill.

    Calvinism is IMHO is a suppressive doctrine invented by Augustine and Constantine to control the masses.
    Romanbear
     
  13. William C

    William C
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    I am sad that you believe that Almighty God can fail. You have my sympathy. [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]Ken, debate requires you to address the scripture. They clearly teach that God wants everyone to be saved, ...........oh, wait I remember you are a universalist you believe that everyone will be saved. Well, there is a whole other host of scripture you need to deal with on another board besides this one.

    Either way these verses are obviously still speaking of God's desire for people to be saved from the coming wrath. God clearly expresses His desire for all people to come to repentance and some obviously don't therefore God doesn't "get what He wants" as you put it.

    I believe God wants two things in this regard.
    1. For all to be saved.
    2. For all to chose what master they will love and serve.

    Both of these desires cannot be fully met unless one of them takes a back seat to the other; therefore they both must be considered when determining God's ultimate will in soteriology.
     
  14. Paul of Eugene

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    What if God wants all men to be saved, but ALSO wants to respect the will of those who reject Him?

    What if God wants all men to be saved, but ALSO wants His servants to have chosen him of their own free will?
     
  15. KenH

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    We come into this world dead in sin - and we had no choice in the matter. We come into this world serving Satan as our master - and we had no choice in the matter.

    Now, do you believe this, or are you a Pelagian?
     
  16. KenH

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    Man does not have free will - Adam lost that in the Fall in the Garden of Eden. We are left with only free choice based on our nature. We come into the world bound by a sinful nature.

    Do you believe this, or are you a Pelagian?
     
  17. timothy 1769

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    What could be more important, if God desires for everyone to be saved, than to carry out His desire for everyone to be saved?

    a couple of ideas come to mind:

    1) he wishes to make known his glory more, or
    2) he wishes to some extent to respect the free will of his creatures

    either of these desires could be used to limit his desire to save everyone. it's like if i want study the bible all the time, but i limit it because i want to earn a living too.
     
  18. KenH

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    If you were one of those that His desire to save did not encompass, would you argue the same point?
     
  19. timothy 1769

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    If you were one of those that His desire to save did not encompass, would you argue the same point?

    if my just punishment in hell glorifies god, so be it.
     
  20. William C

    William C
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    We come into this world dead in sin - and we had no choice in the matter. We come into this world serving Satan as our master - and we had no choice in the matter. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, you are correct, but when presented with the call to belief and repentance and obedience to Christ we must consider the cost of being his disciple. We must "reason" with Him and decide if we want to follow a new master. A choice must be made. 'Choose you this day whom you will serve." Joshua 24:15

    "God has bound all men over to disobedience." This is what you have stated, we without any choice of our own have been bound over to sin, but God didn't stop there for the verse goes on to say, "so that he may have mercy on them ALL." (Romans 11:32)

    Who may He have mercy on? ALL! Not just a select few, but everyone who has been bound over to disobedience.

    The only thing that stands in the way of receiving mercy is their unwillingness to submit to God's righteousness, their resisting of the HS's call, and their own self righteousness.
     

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