Torture: A Necessary EVIL?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by righteousdude2, Nov 3, 2007.

  1. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2
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    While torture may abrasively rub against Christian doctrine, teaching and ethics, we are at war, and the government has to do what it deems necessary in order to protect its people.

    There is so little that this government, or any other government [past or present], is any where close to being Biblical. If the American people knew half of what this government has done in the name of peace and spending our tax dollars, we would shudder in our Gospel sandals.

    This is the reason that I believe that politician claiming to be a believer, is only lying to gather support. Religion and politics are truly strange-bed-fellows. Christianity and politics can never be in accord. A true believer that loves Jesus and holds to the morals, values, ethics, and goal to honor and glorify God by being Holy could never serve as a politician in a world that is filled with such greed, corruption, hate, lies, and deception.

    Christians can rally :godisgood: ; Christians can vote:1_grouphug: . Christians can object:type: . But, big government will continue to move in the direction it chooses, our voice only counts on election day, when we vote the candidate we believe to be the closest thing to being a believer into office. But, once that person moves into their office and starts to serve this nation, they see the office for what is really is, and their fantasy bubble is popped by the sharp tip of the pin of stark reality from a world of political sin, and if they Hope to survive, they quickly adapt to and assimilate into the role of POLITICAL hypocrite. They are torn between their love of Jesus and making good on paying back their favors, backers, and sooner, than later, they get caught up in and sucked down into the vortex of the political cesspool in Washington, D.C.

    Sorry, but the church can not, and will never be able to change their individual "city halls!:BangHead: "

    This is my belief, and I'm sticking to it, so, "What say you?!?!?!?!?"

    Pastor Paul
     
  2. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush
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    Government is a divine institution. Simply because the institution is filled with many corrupt individuals does not make invalid the protocol of God for human government. Just as marriage is a divine institution, it too is filled with many corrupt individuals, this does not make invalid the institution of marriage, just as it does not make invalid that of government or any other divine institution.

    Government is for all men everywhere. It is how law is enforced. Government is the recognized source of civil authority given by God for the enforcement of those laws. In fact, it is the believers duty to involve themselves in government, whether through voting, becoming a representative, the formation of law, the enforcement of that law (in so far as their Christian beliefs are not compromised and then they must suffer as a believer in whatever minimal or maximum measure the suffering is).

    I simply don't see that removing one's self from governmental affairs because others involved are corrupt results in anything other than more corruption. The Bible does not call believers to live in a vacuum.

    A note here. The term "Minister" that we commonly here used in England to refer to an elected official or governmental official of so sort comes right from the Bible. Whether a believer or not, England recognized that those doing the work of government were indeed by default, whether personally accepting of it or not, ministers of God.

    So I simply must take issue here with this sentiment.

    P.S. Your book on the other thread is interesting by the way.
     
  3. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    It is never right to do wrong, even with a chance to do right. History will show when the Church becomes to close to a government, in the end it only hurts the church.

    I wrote on this last week in my weekly column.

    http://www.lincolnstandard.com/main.asp?SectionID=26&SubSectionID=301&ArticleID=2646&TM=70394.39
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Torture is always justified for intelligence reasons.
    Unfortunately torture is at the bottom of all
    methods of collecting intelligence. So the reason
    is always illogical. Torture is mean, even for non-Christians.

    The Roman Rebublic (and certainly the
    mean Empire that followed it was the same)
    had three classes of Persons:
    The Roman Citizen
    The non-Roman Citizen (commoner)
    The slave.

    A court of law could only take testimony
    from a slave only under torture (thus assuming that
    slaves wouldn't otherwise tell the truth).

    BTW, the hardest part of talking to contempory
    Pagans [practitioners are known as 'Witches' (female)
    or Wizards (male) ] is that in about 325 when the
    Christians got to the top of the Roman Empire
    political totem-pole, they began to make Pagan
    Martyars (torture & death) Just like the Pagans
    had done the Christians 210-215 in the the 10 &
    greatest Roman Empire Persecution.
    The Pagans seem to remember this better than
    the Christians do.

    One of the Baptist Banners is DON'T mix Religion
    and Politics (AKA, also known as, SEPARATION
    OF CHURCH AND STATE.)
    I know it is tempting perchance to think otherwise.
    I'm a citizen of Oklahoma and until 1964 we
    SBC-ites were IN THE MAJORITY of voters in
    Oklahoma. Until about 1988 Baptists (not
    just SBC) were in the majority of voters
    in Oklahoma. Yep, it was tempting. But now
    we gamble and booze & pay our public school
    teachers 3 notches from the bottom of the States.
    Unfortunately in the 1980s a Federal sting sent
    1/3 of the County Commissioners to jail - corruption,
    you know, kickbacks. Reminds me that in sub-Saharan
    Africa, the most Christian of the nations are the
    most AIDS infected - heterosexual promiscuity
    and sex with children :( The Pagan sub-Saharan
    states in Africa are the least AIDS infected.

    Anyway, Torture is mean - Christians shouldn't do it.
    Torture is a bad intellegence collection technique.
    US citizens who waste their intellegence collecting
    time doing torture should receive the death penalty.

    People who know Torture is a bad intellegence
    collection technique
    should be supported for
    political office. People who don't know Torture
    is a bad intellegence collection technique
    should
    not be supported for political office.
     
  5. Aaron

    Aaron
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    If that's what it takes to save innocent lives, then do it. The rights of the innocent take precedence over the comfort of the violent.
     
  6. Timsings

    Timsings
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    Thanks, Ed. You've made your point very well. We have two threads going on torture, and neither one makes any sense.

    Recently I bought a book titled Torture and Eucharist: Theology, Politics, and the Body of Christ, by William T. Cavanaugh (1998: Blackwell). I have a few other books I had planned to read first, but I may need to get to it sooner.

    Tim Reynolds
     
  7. Grasshopper

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    I say we would all be speaking German today if our forefathers had that view.
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    That is NOT what we need to save innocent
    lives. Torture is not a good way to
    collect data. Torture is not intelligent
    nor does it promote good intelligence

    Again: we need to put emphasis on
    the Intelligent part of intelligence
    and eschew violence ( I have no problems
    with killing terrorists).

    If we aren't different from the terrorists,
    then we have no reason to fight them.
    Let the terrorists die!
    Let the torturers die!
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    We won WW2 largely because we could
    break enough of the enemy communication
    codes that we knew what & when &
    why they were doing.

    The data I've seen whereby I make my statement:
    "Torture is the poorest way of collecting
    intelligence data" was collected in WW2.
    The Japanese prisoners had been told they
    would be tortured. But they weren't.
    They told every thing they knew.
    The Japanese were supposed to kill themselves
    for the emperor instead of being captured.
    So they considered themselves dead to the
    emperor so free to say what ever they wanted.

    We won the war with Japan on the naval side
    because the Navy considered the life of people
    important. The US Navy rescued both US & Japan
    naval personnel at the scene of ALL naval battles
    (or attacks with marines) - the Japanese at
    NONE. The US had something worth fighting
    to preserve: preservation of life, even
    enemy military life. By contrast, the Japaneese
    who practices data collection by torture had
    no idea what was going on. The people captured
    in the Pacific were six weeks or more away from
    the planners and had no idea what the plans
    were for the future. Meanwhile, we were copying
    the private electronic mail and knew more about
    what the Japanese planners were planning
    than the Japanese military that had to implement
    the plans.

    INTELLIGENCE is about SMART, not TORTURE.
    Torture is mean and stupid :(
     
    #9 Ed Edwards, Nov 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2007
  10. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
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    I don't disagree Ed, I was commenting on his entire post.

    Though if you have a terrorist in custody who you know has info regarding a terrorist attack on US soil, I might pull his fingernail out myself.
     
  11. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2
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    Thanks - They are Great Books

    [/QUOTE]P.S. Your book on the other thread is interesting by the way.[/QUOTE]

    Thanks for your comment about the book. They are both good books, and if you are against the name-it-claim-it teaching this book makes a lot of sense as it encourages those left with pain and suffering after diligent prayer, to trust in His Grace to get them through the pain and suffering.

    Pastor Paul
     
  12. npetreley

    npetreley
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    I went to a Mercedes dealership, found a car I liked, named it and claimed it. But they wouldn't give me the keys. Go figure. I have to remember to write Osteen or Dollar and ask them what I'm doing wrong.
     
  13. Steven2006

    Steven2006
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    You probably forgot to first send them your check for 1/10 the cost of the car.
     
  14. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2
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    Send Us Your Check Brother!!!

    Not enough faith; unconfessed sin in your life; and you forgot to send the check like they asked you to send.

    Pastor Paul
     
  15. npetreley

    npetreley
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    Probably the not enough faith. I need to vow $2,000 to Robert Tilton to increase my faith. ;)
     
  16. JustChristian

    JustChristian
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    I agree that this President is not leading by Christian principles and that the US in not a Christian nation. That doesn't mean that Christians should not try to introduce Biblical concepts into government.
     
  17. JustChristian

    JustChristian
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    But how do you know that the person you're torturing is guilty of anything before they've had their day in court? Of course, Bush doesn't believe that they deserve a trial nor do they deserve to be charged with anything or have access to a lawyer. What in the heck are we fighting for if not democracy? But it's democracy that is being torn down by this fight.
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    This article supports what I said:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...2150.html?wpisrc=newsletter&wpisrc=newsletter

    //At a House Judiciary subcommittee hearing yesterday, Nance and Air Force Col. Steven Kleinman, a senior intelligence officer with decades of experience, said waterboarding is an ineffective tool for gathering information. Nance said that waterboarding sets off a fear of impending death and that people will say anything to get out of it. //
     
  19. npetreley

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    Doesn't sodium pentathol work anymore? Is that considered cruel torture?
     
  20. Aaron

    Aaron
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    I'd say it depends a lot on the rank of the prisoner. If it were Bin Laden's right hand man, I'd say he has a wealth of information. It it were a 14-year-old boy toting a machine gun and hand grenades, then I'd say he had little to offer.

    Neither do I. In fact, I don't think we should be taking prisoners—generally speaking. If it's Bin Laden's right hand man, then yeah, take him prisoner and glean all the intelligence you can from him. But I believe in the total annihilation of the enemy.

    Our own security.
     

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