Torture: A Necessary EVIL?

It's not necessary anymore. Read up (do a google) on MK-Ultra. Our government has spent mega-bucks on mind control drug research.

Mind control drugs are much more effective than torture for the purpose of information extraction.

IMO the "torture" thing is some kind of smoke-screen ruse to surpress the real method of information extraction.

"War is hell". It still is.

In 1945 we unleashed the fires of hell upon Nagasaki and Hiroshima incinerating at least a quarter of a million people (men women and children) and multitudes died of radiation poisoning in the years to follow.

But it worked and WWII ended. I remember my father's home-coming and the jubilation in the streets. They would laugh at us today for this nonsense about torture.

We did what we had to in order to survive.

This Sunday-Monday we will honor those who made the ultimate sacrifice for their fellow citizens.

HankD

 

I have come to the conclusion that a Christian should not support torture. I just cannot visualize Christ Jesus torturing a person.

 

Amen, Brother KenH -- Preach it! :thumbs:

Us little Christ's won't be out torturing folk.

 

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


​

 

When you spank your child for his inappropriate action is that torture?

No, that is punishment.

 

Torture is not an American nor Christian value.
Torture is not necessary but is evil.
Torture is an un-necessary evil.

 

Some would say that it is torture and have you put in jail for doing so.

HankD

 

My take on this "torture" question is that it depends upon current events.

If terrorist(s) were able to set off a nuclear device in a heavily populated American city the definition of torture would probably change to suit the occassion.

Here's a "what if".

What if the terrorist(s) were caught?
Would "torture" be allowed to extract information such as the location of another nuclear device set to go off tomorrow?

How about a painless session of mind control drugs to set up a deceptive but comfortable and familiar environment to the terrorist(s) to get them to "spill the beans"?

HankD

 

I would have to disagree with you here Ed my brother.

IMO, war itself is a necessary evil allowed in Genesis 9:5-6.
Torture can be a necessary tool of war.

Flame throwers are used to route snipers out of their holes and tunnels.

How different is it to incinerate those who would kill you and those you love than to use pain and suffering to extract the information from these people to keep your loved ones from being killed?

War itself is a necessary evil, or as someone has already said, we would be speaking German now.

There is a whole and growing radical society out there whose objective is to enforce Sharia law and religion upon America.

Upon you and your family or remove your head and the heads of those you love for non-compliance.

Yes, we should depend upon God for protection.

FDR and Harry Truman prayed to God publicly for the war to end.
Many believe that nuclear fission was that answer.

"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man"​

When I was a lad the saying was "Remember Pearl Harbor".

Remember 9/11 (how soon we forget).


HankD

 

The difference is that torture produces misinformation and is a certain path to military defeat.

Here's a report about torture from members of the Intelligence Science Board. They testified to Congress about torture.

Here's an op-ed about torture from Charles C. Krulak, former commandant of the Marine Corps, and Joseph P. Hoar, former commander in chief of U.S. Central Command.

From the linked article from the Intelligence Science Board:

Why are we modeling our interrogation programs after those of the Soviet Union, the "Evil Empire" and poster-child for neverending hostility? These are our models for freedom and security?

Torture is ineffective, corrosive and a certain path to military defeat. So, why is any Christian supporting torture?

 

Those "some" would be wrong.

 

As a general rule, you're right, but you're forgetting that we did not fight Muslims in the last two world wars. These men have a deep-seated bitterness and hatred of the U.S. because the U.S. supports Israel in its ethnic cleansing and displacement of the Palestinians. Isreal exists only because of U.S. might.

Many muslims are willing to suffer more for their cause than many Christians are willing to suffer for theirs. The only difference is that Islam is not a true religion. And once their treatment exceeds their threshold of pain and suffering, and they become terrified for their lives, they will spill the beans.

 

As defined in this thread, we are talking about torture of the enemy to gain information. What information is Jesus Christ trying to extract from those not found in the book of life?

 

It seems from these last posts that torture is OK as long as it is done not to extract information but to punish.

HankD

 

God does not torture.

 

The definition of torture that we're using in this thread is this one.

Torture - the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.

We are not using this definition of torture.

Torture - extreme anguish of body or mind; agony

You don't get to change the definition of the word mid-thread. It doesn't work that way. Let's stick to one definition of torture, or else there's no point in even debating the topic.

Now, you brought up Revelation 20:15 as a verse that shows Jesus Christ torturing people. In that verse, are we seeing a picture of Christ trying to get a confession or some other information? Are we seeing a picture of sheer cruelty? I assume you would say No to both of those questions, which means that your argument of Revelation 20:15 being used to show Christ torturing people is refuted.

Torture is unbiblical.

 

God doesn't need to accumulate data,
He already knows everything.

 

So, the Japanese kamikazes didn't hate us as much as the Muslims do, right? Even though both groups have died in attacks on the U.S., the Muslims hate us more. Sorry, that dog won't hunt.

They will? You have some sort of evidence to back up this claim, I'm sure.

The trouble is that the evidence we actually do have leads us to the exact opposite conclusion. Even under questioning without torture, people will admit to crimes that they didn't commit, crimes that other evidence proves that they didn't commit. Questioning without torture leads to misinformation. Why would we think that adding torture to the equation suddenly provides quality information?

The questions that I asked before haven't been answered. Here they are again.

Why are we modeling our interrogation programs after those of the Soviet Union, the "Evil Empire" and poster-child for neverending hostility? These are our models for freedom and security?

Torture is ineffective, corrosive and a certain path to military defeat. So, why is any Christian supporting torture?

 

It seems to me that any Christian who believes in hell supports the idea of

The lake of fire is the consequence of rejecting Jesus Christ as Savior.
In addition to this definition it is an eternal condition.

Therefore, it seems logical that if one supports the biblical fact of hell then why should any Christian not support the idea of a temporary condition called torture of the wicked in order to save innocent lives?

There seems to be this idea that torture is wrong because it is being used to extract information from those who want to do the same to us and worse (take off our heads).

It seems inconsistent (IMO) to complain about our government torturing our enemies while simultaneously holding to the biblical doctrine of hell (Lake of Fire).

First of all, it can't conclusively be proven because the debate still continues with support for either side.

this didn't work in the minds of the Germans who "mentally" were opposed to Hitler.

There is nothing to negotiate. America did what she had to do (Nagasaki, Hiroshima) to survive in spite of one of the precepts of the Geneva Conventions: to spare innocent life. We will do what we have to do and I for one (if I weren't so old) would serve my country again in defending my fellow Americans from these religion crazed individuals.

When the enemy gets around to using nuclear devices or infecting us wth plagues or poisons, then this attitude about "torture" so-called will change when they show up at your front door.

The rich man in Luke 16 was told (in so many words) that he was getting what he deserved.

Luke 16

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.​

Is this a true scriptural account or a "parable".​

Governments have the right to exact retribution from those who shed blood. Foreign Nazi agents during WWII were not only tortured they were executed for their evil deeds.​

One day God Himself will give the order to begin The Day of Lord.​

Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.​

Isaiah 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.​

Revelation 9
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.​

OK, lets use God's model: the wicked should be offered "grace". If they don't respond positively then ​

"...life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe..."​

HankD​

 

Here you are again, trying to change which definition of torture we're talking about. The Biblical fact of Hell is torture because it is extreme anguish, but that is not the definition of torture we are talking about. Can we stick with one definition, please?

Well, sure, if they do it to us, we'll do it to them, eh? A little schoolyard justice, right? Would you have a problem with the Japanese dropping a couple of atomic bombs on us because that's what we did to them?

Since these are 2 different things, there is no inconsistency here.

I've given some evidence to support that torture produces misinformation. It's now your turn. Show the evidence that torture produces quality information.

You would have me believe that using torture make it less likely that these will happen. Since using torture produces misinformation, doesn't it seem more likely that the nuclear devices, plagues, or poisons will wind up on our front door as a result of using torture?

So, the government should use torture instead of execution?

Ah, bring up the Nazis. Time-honored tactic sure to get everybody on your side. Well done. I sense that we're starting to creep into Godwin's Law territory. Hope I'm wrong about that.