Torture and Abortion: What Say You?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by righteousdude2, Nov 5, 2007.

  1. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2
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    I am really upset with all of the folks that are against torturing the enemy. How about taking on the real problem: Abortion of trimester babies....NOW THAT IS TORTURE.

    Let me start this thought with the following: America is not a chosen nation by any means. Israel is [argument over]. So if we are not a chosen people or nation, that must mean that we are nothing more than a nation of pagans and gentiles. This would mean that America, as a nation of pagans and gentiles, is not subject to living in accordance with what the Bible teaches[and this is evident by all the sin around us]. The only Americans that are subject to live in accordance with His Word are those who have been born-again. Born-again Americans should of course follow the Word of God to its last jot and tittle, because we are Christians first, Americans second!

    With that said, Bush and any leader [past, present and future] does not have a responsibility to live according to the Word let alone GOVERN by the Word. Besides, our laws would forbid any leader governing by the Word of God. This is a nation of many religions and atheists. Bush claims to be a believer [only God knows for sure], but, he is struggling to live in accordance with the Word, which shows all of us that religion and politics are not a good fit. Toooooooooooooo many compromises are needed, and most of those compromises are not Godly, i.e., war and torture and partial birth abortion and abortion and no prayer in schools and legalized prostitution [in Nevada] and......well, you should be getting the picture.

    So, if we are not a chosen nation killing the bad guys and torturing them "silly" is the just a consequence of war. End of story!

    Face it brethren and sisters, America is not subject to the Word of God due to the separation of "church and state." Only those who are born-again, in this nation and every nation around the world, will answer to God. The leaders of the free world, and the bad guys will answer to God in another way, at another time and place [the Judgment Day].

    So, if you think torture is wrong, let's hear a big AMEN! for ending abortion; and a huge, mind-blowing, ear-cracking AMEN for the end of partial birth abortions, which I believe is the pinnacle of torture and probably the most horrific form of legalized torture practiced by mankind and funded by our taxes.

    If you folks are going to enter into a theological debate over torture, let's not forget the babies that never will be.

    Shalom,

    Pastor Paul
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Sir, you are the enemy.
    I am against torturing the enemy.
    Therefore: I'm against torturing you.
    I am NOT against torturing the enemy for Christian reason(s).
    I am against torturing the enemy because it is
    NOT a good way to collect data.
    I am against torturing the enemy because it is
    NOT kind.
    I am against torturing the enemy because
    it can destroy our republic if we let as few
    as 10,000 such torturers roam free in our country.


    I have fostered NO TORTURE (AKA: hazing) in
    High School & College since 1968 (39 years).
    I retired from 30 years making smart weapon
    systems for the US Government.
    Kill terrorists - don't torture them.

    Oh yes, I'm against recreational booze & recreational abortion.
     
    #2 Ed Edwards, Nov 5, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2007
  3. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2
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    I'm Not the Enemy!

    I am not the enemy Ed [that is a highly judgmental comment coming from one believer to another]...........and for your information, look around and try to tell me that this nation is full of corruption and evil and too far gone to be salvaged.

    I don't know you Ed, but, it seems that you are doing a great service to the youth of this nation by charing your views against torture. I applaud your efforts.

    The only thought I have is how you could make smart bombs while you speak out against torture. There are many that would look at your contribution to warfare as being a bad thing. The terrorists blame Americans for bombing innocent women and children, and smart bombs are one of their main complaints about this nation's military. Personally, I applaud your contribution to this nations arsenal, but, there are many Islamic radicals who would judge you for your smart bombs. In fact, I wouldn't brag too much about your contribution to our weaponry. A terrorist may see you as an enemy and swear Jihad against you!

    However, I ask the Father's blessings on you, and I pray for your continued success in sharing the need to end hazing/torture as a weapon of war.

    Pastor Paul
     
  4. npetreley

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    A big AMEN. I can't even think about partial birth abortions, it's too horrid.
     
  5. ccrobinson

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    Q. If we call a tail a leg, how many legs does a horse have?

    A. 4, because a tail is not a leg no matter what you call it.

    In the same way, just because you call abortion torture doesn't make it so. Here's a handy definition.

    Torture - the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.

    Since there is no confession or information that could be gained from aborting a baby, it cannot be called torture. Since your definition of torture is wrong from the beginning, your equation of abortion = torture cannot be true.

    Torturing the enemy is an unbiblical stance and I'm upset and appalled that a pastor would endorse torture.

    PS. I'm against both abortion and torture.
     
  6. SBCPreacher

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    I do not believe that abortion is torture - it's murder, premeditated at that. (aren't you supposed to go to jail, or be executed for premeditated murder?) To try and draw some kind of line between the two is a weak argument and a waste of time.
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    // I am not the enemy Ed [that is a highly judgmental
    comment coming from one believer to another] ... //

    Sorry, my Bad.
    I rephrase:

    You are the enemy of terrorists.
    What we do to them will be done back to us.
    I'm not afraid of dying; but 'they' sure aught
    to be.
     
  8. kubel

    kubel
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    "Why are we worried about protecting our enemy from torture when we should be protecting our own unborn from abortion?"

    Can't we be against both?
     
  9. belvedere

    belvedere
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    From dictionary.com:

    tor·ture [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG] /ˈtɔr[​IMG]tʃər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[tawr-cher] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -tured, -tur·ing.
    –noun 1.the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty. 2.a method of inflicting such pain. 3.Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone. 4.extreme anguish of body or mind; agony. 5.a cause of severe pain or anguish. –verb (used with object) 6.to subject to torture. 7.to afflict with severe pain of body or mind: My back is torturing me. 8.to force or extort by torture: We'll torture the truth from his lips! 9.to twist, force, or bring into some unnatural position or form: trees tortured by storms. 10.to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.).


    I think abortion could easily fit the definition of torture.
     
  10. UnchartedSpirit

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    Too much meditation of the subject will certainly bring someone down to liking the more cold-hearted nihilist opinion...so I say we close the subject for good from BB...
     
  11. youngmom4

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    I would definitely agree that abortion is both murder and torture! I have carried three children, and I could not imagine allowing one to be partially born and then killed or having one sucked out of my uterus before it had a chance to form completely. I felt all of those children almost from conception; I literally knew before I ever took a test with all three of them. So, I will definitely say that abortion is torture because it harms an innocent child.
     
  12. righteousdude2

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    There is Pain for the Child [fetus] w/PBA

    I have been afforded the chance to view a partial birth abortion on video at a training class [pro-life workshop], and the baby is in definite pain when it is sucked from the mothers uterus. For those that say there is no correlation between abortion and torture, you are wrong....dead wrong! The baby [fetus] screams out in agony during the procedure, and it fights to stay alive, a fight it is doomed to lose!

    Those that have criticized my drawing any relation between torture and PBA need to get a clue [educated] about the truth. I don't approve of torture any more than I approve of any form of abortion at any period during gestation. However, I have tried hard to show that like torture, PBA and abortion are tax funded by us, and not something any of us have power to change. This is a government of the people, but, NOT necessarily by the people [at this day and age].

    We really need to vote every one in office, from president on down, out of office, and start over[something that will never happen]. The corruption in America is too deeply rooted to change with a new senator here, and several new congresspersons there. Even a new president won't change the direction of this country. The corruption and defiance by elected officials is so far gone, only the second coming of our Lord will change the direction of this nation and the world at large.

    Sorry. Some may say that I am negative, but, actually, I have been enlightened. I have been to city hall, and seen the pathetic views and beliefs of those in office, and it goes all the way up the ladder and back down again!

    Pastor Paul:type:
     
  13. ccrobinson

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    righteousdude2 said:

    Good. I'm on-board with this too. But why did you start the OP with this?

    Righteousdude2, can you pick one definition of torture and stick with it? You started out by talking about torture of the enemy. Now, you want to use the definition of the word that means severe pain.

    belvedere said:

    Sure it could. But that's not the definition of torture that righteousdude2 was talking about. In the OP, righteousdude2 clearly defined what he meant by torture, and it wasn't the kind of torture defined as severe pain.

    You don't get to start a thread using one definition of the word then change what meaning you're using mid-thread. That dog won't hunt.
     
  14. righteousdude2

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    Are You an Attorney?


    Haven't heard that kind of bending of thoughts and words since my last deposition. :thumbs:
     
  15. ccrobinson

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    Bending of thoughts and words? What on earth are you talking about? Please explain.

    Here's what you said in the OP.

    Then, you said this.

    "Torturing the enemy" refers to the definition I've posted, which is a valid definition.

    "... baby is in definite pain..." refers to the definition belvedere posted, which is also a valid definition.

    Wouldn't you agree that these are 2 different definitions of the word torture that you're using?
     
  16. JustChristian

    JustChristian
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    This is an easy question. Both are wrong.
     
  17. Magnetic Poles

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    Torturing our POWs captured in battle gives our potential enemies all the justification they need, as reinforces the view of the US as a rogue nation. Anyone who supports torture is detestable.
     
  18. Timsings

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    We now have four threads on torture. And we have people trying to make a case that torture can supported with scripture. :BangHead: In another of these threads, my opinion was referred to as "pathetic" and "twisted" because I dared to refer to enemy combatants as our "neighbors". This whole situation reminds me of the effort in the 19th century to justify slavery by using scripture. What is pathetic and twisted is the way too many of us have bought into the "politics of fear" and, on the BB, the "theology of fear". We have blurred our faith and our patriotism until neither are recognizable. We are lapsing into McCarthyism and the kind of attitudes reminiscient of the Spanish Inquisition. We need to remember that we worship a God of grace, peace, and mercy.

    Tim Reynolds
     
  19. JustChristian

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    Amen. As far as I know, this is still part of the New Testament.

    Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
    Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
    Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
    Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
    Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
     
  20. Timsings

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    Thanks for the support. I think I've already mentioned this passage on one of the other torture threads. But it does not seem to have had much effect.

    Tim Reynolds
     

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