Total Depravity Exposed

Dogma is something that must be believed without understanding. It basically is a "gap" in knowledge that one's authorities tell you to ignore.

"Systematic Theology" used to be called "Reform Dogma" but that term was repulsive to most Protestants (though expressing exactly what it authors meant it to express!)

Universalism would say that all men are saved. Because Calvinism believes that drawing is always efficacious, it thinks that free will is claiming that everyone is saved. That is simply not what drawing means at all. Drawing means attracting, in this case with something desireable --- salvation. Doesn't mean it is given -- just that what is offered IS the heart's desire of every man (though most cannot get over relinquishing their desires for it).

One reason is on account of this "drawing." Another is that God "hath put eternity in their hearts," Ecc 3:11, 14 and Rom 1:19-20. I'm curious -- does Calvinism account for these? That man can know there is a God? that man can know there is an eternity and still not want to live eternally?

And I again to Col 1:13 -- "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:" Once we are justified by God, we are given into the Son's kingdom, the church, for sanctification.

Of course we didn't take the first step. Who said we did? Jesus died for us -- God preached to us. We merely respond. How is responding a "first step" in your mind?

skypair

 

Total Depravity--A thought process?

The scripture is spiritually discerned. We could spend a lifetime on Mars Hill, pondering our navels 24-7, and never "think through" to salvation--our minds are depraved too. What did Jesus say to a Master Theologian, named Nicodemus? "You must be born again."

Why do we depend on 16th century reformers(?) to determine our doctrine? Is it possible that the doctrines of depravity and inability of man to do anything of merit were taught long before Luther, Chauvin and Arminius?

Look at the doctrines of the "heretics", if you can find them.

Total Depravity is not a "reformation" doctrine. It goes back to: "The Faith, once, for all delivered to the Saints."

You probably will not find this teaching on Mars Hill.:BangHead:

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Do you notice that "we all fade?" "Iniquities have taken us away?" The implication is 1) that we were not born totally depraved and 2) that we are BECOMING totally depraved though we never can get to that nadir!

A quotation Paul takes from David's Psalm lamenting about his enemies, Psa 5:8. And 5:11 shows the free will alternative clear as day --- "But let those that put their trust in the Lord rejoice..." IOW, we can actually CHOOSE to do that as well!!

Lifting out of context is dangerous business, DL.

skypair

 

NOt sure what dictionaey you are using:

 

==That is such a distorted view of Scripture. How can you just push aside clear statements like Romans 3:10-11 that state clearly that no man seeks after God and turn around and try to use a verse (Rom 10:13) that does not deal with free will to prove free will? I am simply amazed though I know I should not be.

==So you think man softens his/her own heart without the work of God?

==Makes no sense.

 

==I came to believe in "Calvinism" through reading the New Testament. Does that mean I believe dogma? I only agree with certain teachers because they agree with the Scriptures.

==Right, and if you claim that the drawing in Jn 6:44 and 12:32 are the same then you are backing yourself right into universalism.

==Wrong. I am accusing you of backing yourself into universalism because of your inconsistant approach to Scripture. You are claiming that John 6:44 and 12:32 are speaking of the same "drawing" yet you ignore the fact that, in John 6:44, the one drawn is the one raised to life. Free will only gets you bondage and not salvation.

==The term used in John 6:44 for drawing is a bit stronger than that. However, even if it were not, Jesus clearly says about the one that is drawn that "I will raise him up".

==As I pointed out. In John 6:37-45 we have several statements that bring us to the same conclusions. In John 6:37 those the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus, in John 6:40 those who believe will be raised up on the last day, in John 6:44 only those the Father draws to Jesus can come to Jesus, and in John 6:45 only those taught of the Father come to Jesus. Those the Father has given to Jesus will come to Jesus because the Father draws them to Jesus. It is the work of God. Coming to Jesus is an act of faith that results in Jesus giving them eternal life. Why does He give them eternal life? Because the Father has given them to Him and therefore they have believed in Him (Jn 17:2).

==Those things are not enough to save anyone. The Scriptures never teach that. All those things do is add to the condemnation of the lost man who refuses to seek after the true God.

==Yes, demons and the devil know those things yet even they still refuse God. The demons know, they tremble at their knowledge, but it does nothing to change their minds. Knowing there is a God, knowing there is a hell to avoid, is not enough to bring sinful man to God.

==Scripture clearly teaches that people don't believe, people can't believe, unless they are drawn by the Father and then they are raised up on the last day (Jn 6:44).

 

When Scripture says "as it was written...", it helps to go back and see where it was written. No man seeks after God flies in the face of contless Scriptures from God to man to seek Him.

 

Where are there countless scriptures where God says man does seek him on his own?
I never saw those.

 

Did I ever say anything about seeking ON HIS OWN? Please, quit with the strawmen...

 

==That is a shocking statement. What Scriptures contradict Romans 3:10-12? Please list them out.

Again I am amazed but again I know I should not be.

________________________

I am still waiting on your detailed response to:


Quote:
Originally Posted by skypair
Because Calvinism believes that drawing is always efficacious, it thinks that free will is claiming that everyone is saved.


==Wrong. I am accusing you of backing yourself into universalism because of your inconsistant approach to Scripture. You are claiming that John 6:44 and 12:32 are speaking of the same "drawing" yet you ignore the fact that, in John 6:44, the one drawn is the one raised to life. Free will only gets you bondage and not salvation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skypair
That is simply not what drawing means at all. Drawing means attracting, in this case with something desireable --- salvation.


==The term used in John 6:44 for drawing is a bit stronger than that. However, even if it were not, Jesus clearly says about the one that is drawn that "I will raise him up".


Quote:
Originally Posted by skypair
Doesn't mean it is given


==As I pointed out. In John 6:37-45 we have several statements that bring us to the same conclusions. In John 6:37 those the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus, in John 6:40 those who believe will be raised up on the last day, in John 6:44 only those the Father draws to Jesus can come to Jesus, and in John 6:45 only those taught of the Father come to Jesus. Those the Father has given to Jesus will come to Jesus because the Father draws them to Jesus. It is the work of God. Coming to Jesus is an act of faith that results in Jesus giving them eternal life. Why does He give them eternal life? Because the Father has given them to Him and therefore they have believed in Him (Jn 17:2).

 

Yes, you implied that. need to to quote? Ir you can just scroll up.

 

I agree. However, in every message on this Board that quotes scripture, this is done to an extent, otherwise we would need to paste the whole bible into every post.

 

Whatever, martie. :tear:

What are you saying --- that the word "draw" has a different meaning in these 2 verses? Show my how you derive that, pls.

All are drawn TOWARDS salvation in both verses. It just so happens that in 6:44, Jesus speaks concerning those who accept Christ.

Those that COME to Him will be raised up. The verse does NOT say that those who are drawn will be raised.

Of course they aren't. You asked me how man could turn to God. I gave you some ways that the Bible tells us man knows --- is even without excuse. The ultimate thing is the Spirit in the word as you note.

See, that shows how much you DON'T know. They are prevented from redemption, martie. It is not that they might now realize they were wrong and repent -- they CAN'T repent. God won't accept their repentance. It is like you after you die --- you can't change your mind either.

That is part of the convicting of the Holy Spirit -- "of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. ... of judgment because the world is judged." I wish you would stop making these nonsensical remarks.

skypair

 

==The context determines what kind of drawing is occuring. So please, explain how you have not backed yourself into universalism.

==So you are claiming there are those who are drawn to Christ but do not accept Christ? Well that does not work. Your statement contradicts everything Jesus said in John 6:44 (also see vs65). Your statement turns everything Jesus said on its head. The whole point Jesus was making is that no one can come to Jesus unless they are drawn by the Father and if they are drawn they are raised. No one comes to Christ unless they are drawn by the Father and everyone drawn is raised to life. Why? Because Jesus said that nobody comes to Him unless they are drawn by the Father. Jesus also said that the one who is drawn is the one who is raised (Jn 6:44).

==Well let's see: "No one comes to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise him up on the last day" (Jn 6:44). Who comes to Jesus? The one drawn. Notice that it is because a person is drawn that they come. Who is raised up by Jesus? The one who is drawn (the same as the one who comes).

==I never said they could be saved. That was not my point. Maybe you should re-read your comment and my response:

Originally Posted by skypair
I'm curious -- does Calvinism account for these? That man can know there is a God? that man can know there is an eternity and still not want to live eternally?


==Yes, demons and the devil know those things yet even they still refuse God. The demons know, they tremble at their knowledge, but it does nothing to change their minds. Knowing there is a God, knowing there is a hell to avoid, is not enough to bring sinful man to God.

You asked why a person can know there is a God (etc) and still not want to live eternally. I answered. Satan and demons are fallen angels. That means there was a time when they were not fallen. Given all they knew, an had seen, they still chose to sin. Mankind has been given plenty of light. Nobody is without excuse. Yet every person, of their own free will, rejects Christ. Therefore to save anyone God must first work in that person's life. Just holding out an offer would not work since no man seeks the true God on their own.

==My point was along the same lines as James 2:19. Are you going to accuse James of not knowing something? Maybe you need to go back and show me these verses that you claimed contradict Romans 3:10-12 as well?

 

==Normally I would be more than glad to start a new thread considering how off topic this thread has gotten. However I have surgery (outpatient) Wednesday morning and I don't know when I will feel like posting again. Therefore it seems like a waste of time for me to start a new thread on this right now. Maybe I will feel like posting on Thursday, but I just don't know.

Just explaining why I continue to post in this thread and not open a new thread.

 

better yet, I'll supply it for you. Never even implied that...

 

...praying your surgery goes well...

 

Please accept my apologies for deviating (in my replies to messages on this thread) from the original subject. Sorry.