Total Depravity = Hardening?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Feb 14, 2011.

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  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    Calvinism's doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that men are born unable to see, hear, understand and believe the gospel.

    The scripture teaches that men ARE able to see, hear, understand and believe until they "become hardened" or "grow calloused." (e.g. Acts 28:21-28; John 12:39-41, etc)

    This is why the Bible warns us not to allow our hearts to grow hardened (Heb. 3). We are not born hardened, as Total Depravity presumes. One becomes hardened only after hearing, seeing, understanding and rejecting the revealed truth.

    At times God sealed men in that hardened state in order to accomplish a purpose through them, like Pharoah, which Paul compares to the hardening of the Jews in Romans 9 (this is called "judicial hardening").

    How is Calvinism's teaching of Total Depravity consistent with the scriptures teaching regarding hardening? What say ye?
     
  2. pinoybaptist

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    Here is Acts 28:21-28 -
    It looks like the religious JEWS (not Greeks, not Romans, not Chinese, not any of the Gentiles, but JEWS who are part of national Israel, whom Paul speaks of in Romans in a way as to suggest they are a PICTURE of the true elect of God) decided to hear Mr. Paul out, and they agreed on a day and time.
    Now, like any normal Bible study, if one has been in some, or any normal evangelistic meeting in today's churches, some "raise" their hands and "accept" Christ, some don't, no matter how hard the "inviter" kicks the "invited's" foot secretly or nudges him/her/them with his/her/their elbow.
    SOME believe, SOME don't.
    Like any house meetings, some members of the household believe, some do not.
    Does this mean those who believe not are damned ?



    Converted, not redeemed. Am I saying all Jews are redeemed ? Not at all. I am saying that Paul, in his love for his fellow Jews, ignored the fact that Scripture itself says he is to bear God's light to the Gentiles, not to the Jews, and even as he frustatedly go, in the end, where God wanted him, he still expressed this desire in his letter to the Romans Chapters 9 and 10.

    Is God unjust to not open their eyes and ears ? Is God unjust if he never opened your eyes and ears ? Were you born with a spirit in tune with your maker ? Were you born with a thirst for Scripture and truth ? Have idols never attracted you ?
     
  3. MB

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    Pionybaptist;
    You asked;
    Why not look at the whole picture.
    1 God had blinded them because of rejection. They could see and hear before being blinded.
    2 The Jews eyes had to be open in order for God to close them

    3 I must have been because I have never been blind nor deaf of the gospel. I still remember Jn 3:16 taught to me at the age of 5
    4 Everyman desires to know the why of it all and the Bible is the only true explaination.
    5 I've always thought that idol worship was nonsense a result of shear ignorance and a lack of common sense. Inanimate objects are just that inanimate they have never lived. Why else would anyone give worship to it, were it not a real ignorance and lack of sense.
    MB
     
    #3 MB, Feb 14, 2011
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  4. Skandelon

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    :thumbsup:

    Good points. What is the point in hardening a man born totally hardened? Why blind a man born completely blind? The Jews (in general) GREW hardened/calloused because they heard and rejected God's revelation. If they were born totally hard this would make no sense, especially considering the contrast Paul makes between the Jews who are hardened and the Gentiles who will listen. How does that make sense in a world where everyone is supposedly born totally hardened?
     
  5. Martin Marprelate

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    For Total Depravity, read Rom 3:9-19.
    There is a pile of other texts too, but that will do for starters.

    Steve
     
  6. Skandelon

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    That passage supports the doctrine of Original Sin, but in no way goes as far to say that men are born unable to willingly respond to God's effort to seek and save us through the powerful Holy Spirit wrought gospel truth.

    We all agree that we can't seek God, but what about our ability to respond to a God seeking us through apostles, scripture, the Holy Spirit, Jesus and His bride, of which are proclaiming the powerful gospel? Is that not sufficient?
     
  7. Earth Wind and Fire

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  8. Earth Wind and Fire

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    ALSO AS mARTIN SAID oops caps lock ... Romans 3:9-20


    9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

    “There is no one righteous, not even one;
    11 there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God.
    12 All have turned away,
    they have together become worthless;
    there is no one who does good,
    not even one.”
    13 “Their throats are open graves;
    their tongues practice deceit.”
    “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
    14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
    15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
    17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
    18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

    19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
     
  9. Skandelon

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    Great passage. It supports the idea of Original Sin, on which we agree. It doesn't however teach that men are born hardened and thus unable to willingly respond to God's life giving powerful message of reconciliation. We both agree that God must supply the answer to our problem of sin, we just disagree regarding the means he has employed to do this. This verse tells us nothing about those means and thus doesn't say enough to support your premise.
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Its grace that he supplies brother.
     
  11. webdog

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    We are dead in OUR trespasses and sins...that is what Scripture says. We are not created dead in someone else sins.
     
    #11 webdog, Feb 14, 2011
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  12. Skandelon

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    Yes it is, Praise His Name! Just like Paul says in the very next chapter: "I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power."
     
  13. Skandelon

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    :thumbsup:

    James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
     
  14. Winman

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    Has anyone here ever known a child that is hardened against God? We have a bus ministry at our church and bring dozens of children generally between the ages of six and twelve, and I have never seen a child hardened against God. They love to come, they love to sing praises to Jesus. Many have accepted Jesus as their Savior.

    I have met adults who curse God and religion, but I have never seen a child do this.

    This contradicts Total Depravity as some hold it.
     
  15. quantumfaith

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  16. Martin Marprelate

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    I think you need to get around a little more. I can remember one 8 or 9 year old girl saying she didn't believe in God and she didn't want to come to Sunday School any more. Children love to sing and they may be happy to get out of the house on Sunday afternoon or whenever, and they may tell you or their parents that they love Jesus or ask him into their hearts if that's what they think you want them to say or do, but they will not repent of their sins and trust in Christ for salvation unless God opens their hearts to do so (1Cor 2:14).

    From http://marprelate.wordpress.com/2010/07/03/the-new-birth-2-the-necessity-of-being-born-again/

    Steve
     
  17. quantumfaith

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    :thumbsup:
     
  18. Skandelon

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    How much you want to bet there is a back story on that little girl? She has been hurt and the hardening process has started early in her life, but that doesn't negate the point being made regarding the clear fact that people aren't born hardened...they grow hardened.

    If this passage supports your premise then the "brethren" in Corinth to whom Paul is addressing this letter are lost.
     
  19. Iconoclast

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    total depravity= total depravity....as usual your whole premise is wrong.
    The scripture teaches that men ARE able .....no,wrong again
    44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    Looks like you are wrong again, but at least you are consistent.
     
  20. Iconoclast

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    you still do not believe romans 5:12...same old story

     
    #20 Iconoclast, Feb 14, 2011
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