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Total Depravity = Hardening?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Feb 14, 2011.

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  1. Osage Bluestem

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    What happens to people who never hear the gospel before they die in your soteriology?
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hello Mb,
    I would like to respond to some of what you say here.

    you say;
    I believed most of what I believe now before I knew any of these historical persons existed. Furthermore I believed and embraced the truths of scripture before I ever read anything from Calvin or the Reformers, or puritans.
    That being said...I now have come to appreciate how much wisdom God has given these men and women who looked at the scriptures and saw the same God,and the same truth taught.
    then you say;
    This kind of statement borders on ignorance. As if only you have the Holy Spirit?? The church throughout time has not been indwelt by the Spirit?:confused: Why would you say this?
    God has given pastors and teachers to His church.If you choose to ignore this fact ,that is up to you.

    The whole reformation was based on these truths. Mistakes?
    I doubt you can accurately state the teaching of scripture concerning these truths much less set yourself up in a position to judge all these brothers as mistake filled.
    then you say this;
    this mis-representation of the teaching shows you do not grasp the teaching of grace, or the free offer of the gospel. God is going to save multitudes...not a particular few.

    Your works based ideas are what is missing out on grace.
    Sorry to use this quote....it uses election and grace in the same sentence.
    The mistaken calvinist the Apostle Paul most have learned the mistakes of the other calvinists among the apostles.
    Not everyone can or will believe in the grace of God. God has to allow them to. You might not agree with those who understand the doctrines of grace, but do not mis-represent the position as you disagree. When you do intentionally ,or not ....no one will take your post seriously.
     
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Dhk,
    Just got home tonight so i will try to respond to several of your thoughts
    from post 57
    I agree with this.
    ok this reminds me of this
    1 thess2 explains how the Spirit quickens the word to the sheep.
    I do not like how this writer says this;
    God does not react, or give eternal life.....because as he says.....as a resultI give life to them. That is false. The sheep have to be enabled to respond, they would never do it of their own accord.
    The sheep heard because God allowed them to.That is why they are sheep.
    They did not become sheep.....they were sheep...just lost ones .Jesus the good shepherd finds All of His sheep
    In post 77 you repeat the error that God is not willing that any perish....once again the bible does not teach that...Jesus is more than willing that multitudes perish,mt 7:21-24 depart from me
    rev20
     
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No.....spiritual truth is spiritually discerned. It is not a question of human ability or lack thereof....salvation is of the Lord.He reveals truth to whom He will. A natural man can be an intellectual genius and yet be completely devoid of the truth of the grace of God.
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Not so Robert.....when I read romans 8 romans 9 and ephesians 1, eph 3 I believed God as He reveals Himself as the true and living God who has revealed His eternal plan to the the church.
    Did not even know of Calvin or the puritans before seeing the truth of scripture, although there was still much more to learn.
     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    "It is my belief" But I never quoted my belief. I simply quoted Scripture. You are making unwarranted Scriptures and apparently don't have a clue of what I believe. You would be wise to listen to a person first, and then respond, rather than to respond to the words that you have already put in a person's mouth. That is disgusting.
    You know the art of eisigesis well. John was the Apostle writing to the world--both Jews and Gentiles. There is not one word here that speaks of Jews. You really have to stretch the context, read into it, or simply ignore it to get that out of it. The "we" are the believers "the church" that he is writing to. He wrote ca. 90 A.D. when division between Jewish and Gentile believers was no longer a problem. He was writing to believers--they were all one in Christ. The "we" is inclusive, meaning that he includes himself.

    He is the propitiation for OUR sins, and not for OURS (believers in Christ) but for those of the whole world. Yes, he is the propitiation for each and every person in the world for every age from the beginning to the end. And all who believe on him shall have eternal life. That is his promise, and that is not universalism. Atonement is sufficient to all; efficacious to those that believe.
    Is that what I said. You like to put words in people's mouths and then answer to your own words. IT is disgusting.
     
  7. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    Do you believe the propitiation is effective for those that don't believe? Or do you just believe that the propitiation is only effective for those that do believe, though it is sufficient for all?

    Do you know of a Calvinist that teaches that the shed blood of Christ didn't have the ability to save all sin? Most Calvinists that I have read all agree that the death of Christ was sufficient to save all, but only efficient for the elect(those that believe).

    The Synod of Dordt was very clear that the atonement was sufficient for all but efficient for the elect.

    "Article 3: The Infinite Value of Christ's Death

    This death of God's Son is the only and entirely complete sacrifice and satisfaction for sins; it is of infinite value and worth, more than sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world."​
     
    #107 jbh28, Feb 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2011
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It has the ability; it is sufficient.
    For those who believe it is efficacious.
     
  9. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Maybe you have completely forgotten our exchanges over the years including the thread :God Got The Memo.




    That sounds pretty much like :He Himself is the propitiation for everyone,everywhere,and at all times. (DHK 1 John 2:2)

    Propitiation removes the wrath of God the Father. You believe that every single person --past,present and future has had their sins propitiated --no wrath of the Father will abide on them. Yet the reality is that that many are in Hell and many others will spend their eternity there who supposedly had their sins propitiated. That just doesn't make scriptural sense. Your understanding of propitiation and what it entails is not biblical.
     
  10. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    On that, we agree.
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. The ones that the Father gives me my sheep are the ones that respond to my message and believe in me, and as a result I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all….
    Though God is omniscient, and knows the end from the beginning, he does respond to prayer, even the "sinner's prayer," if it can be so called. If the unsaved prays, calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to save Him, Christ (as per his promise in Romans 10:13) will surely save him.

    We are saved because we respond to the word of God. It is the message of the gospel that saves.
    For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)
    But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Corinthians 1:23)
    For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)
    It is evident that God allowed the unbelieving Jews who resisted the Holy Spirit to hear the Word of God as well. Everywhere Jesus went multitudes heard the Word of God.
    The sheep are the ones that believe on Christ. After they believe, THEN, Jesus gives unto them eternal life. Not until then. They must believe of their own free will.
    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
    Your argument is with Scripture not with me.
     
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I prefer accurate quotes, my words put in quotes. People's memories tend to be hazy, and their paraphrases usually inaccurate. You would do best to quote me if you are going to try and express my beliefs.
    Like I said, if you have a problem with the Bible (1John 2:2), take it up with God, not me. I didn't write it.
    Another word is "satisfaction." In a legal sense Christ satisfied the demands of God the Father by paying the penalty of our sins, and not for ours only but the penalty for the sins of the whole world, as the verse says.
    I believe what the Bible says. He is the propitiation of our sins, and for the sins of the whole world. What part of that do you not understand? If you don't believe it you have a problem with God and his word.
    So say you. Take your argument up with God.
    It is plainly stated that he is the propitiation of the sins of the whole world. I said I agree with the statements written in the Bible, not with your philosophy. Your argument is with God and His Word, not with me.
     
  13. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    Unless they are mentally unable to understand, or are infants, they face God's judgment. I believe if anyone obeys the light that God gives them, He will give them more light, like Romans chapter one mentions.
     
  14. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    In that soteriology, the gospel is the cross' and empty tomb's power.
    They will never understand or admit that without the cross and the empty tomb the gospel is all hot air and that even without the gospel the cross and the empty tomb is power.
     
  15. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Your interpretation of that passage as well as 2 Peter 3:9;John 3:16 etc. are in error.

    I like the word "satisfaction" as another way of expreesing the idea of 1 John 2:2 and other passages. I have used the term myself a number of times.

    But,again, you err when you claim that Christ paid the penalty of the sins of the whole world if you define "whole world as "each and every person who has and shall live on the earth.

    Christ's death was for the benefit for His elect alone scattered throughout the earth --in the past,present and future. His death was international --world-wide but not for each-and-every.

    Christ's death secured the redemption of folks from among all every tribe,language,people and nation as Rev.5:9,7:9 and other passages reveal.

    Christ most certainly did not pay the penalty for those residing and those who shall reside in Hell. According to your view the reprobate are paying their own penalty for their sins even though Christ already paid the penalty for their sins! Sorry, that does not biblically compute.

    You have to compare Scripture with Scripture --the analogy of Scripture principle. I have said before that John 10:51,52 matches up with and connects the dots with 1 John 2:2.
     
  16. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    The same for me.
     
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Yes indeed:thumbsup:
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I could say the same about you but then that would be accusing, right.
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    here are your responses; It is clear that you differ from scripture.
    Yet the scripture I posted in ezk34 says God will,I will,..not the sheep will.

    Your false idea of "free will" forces you to twist the work of God into the work of man. When you say...we are saved-because we you highlight your error. You compound the error when you say this;
    You have reversed the scriptural order. You have mans supposed "free will"
    in the place of God ,effectively making an idol of it,yousay;
    Then we have the classic pull it out of context and have the text say what it does not.
    In post 77....you left out the ....to-usward.....your theology leaves out the
    to-usward being the elect being spoken of.
    When you do this and repeat these errors, my arguement is with you,not with scripture.
     
  20. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I do not believe you formed these ideas on your own as you claim here.
    The odds of two people more than 1900 years apart coming up with the exact same theology just isn't possible. I've had Calvinist make this claim before. I just do not believe you. What can I say the only truth is God's absolute truth.
    Then according to you no one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit not even your self. And you think I border on ignorance. No one is saved with out the Holy Spirit.

    1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    Teachers teach us about Christ so that we might be converted after conversion and we submit to the righteousness of Christ. We then have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of us and He teaches us.
    The reformation of the Catholic faith is a mistake built on a false Christianity. Where men worship Mary and other so called saints.
    What I said about grace I stand behind. Grace is a loving favor that can only be had while we are in submission to Him.
    The rebels of the world are not saved until they lay down there rebellion and submit.
    Faith and submission is not works. Submission is giving up the fight and faith is a gift from God. Eph 2:8
    Too funny :laugh: Paul certainly was no calvinist. Only your arrogance would cause you to claim it to be so.
    What a load of bull. Here we have that particular few who are allowed to believe. The doctrines of grace as you call them do not exist in scripture. They didn't exist at all until Calvinist formed them for a response to the Arminians. They only exist in the confused mind of the Calvinist. Which is why I assume that Calvinist everyday are turning back to there homes in the Catholic faith and the Pope who doesn't believe Christ was the messiah is there waiting for there return.
    MB
     
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