Total Depravity, Not Quite Total

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ForumChaplain, Oct 15, 2002.

  1. ForumChaplain

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    Pay close attention to Ezek 14: 14 & 20.
    Gen 6:9
    9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. (KJV)

    Ezek 14:14
    14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
    (KJV)

    Ezek 14:14
    14 even if these three men-- Noah, Daniel and Job-- were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.
    (NIV)

    Ezek 14:20
    20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
     
  2. KenH

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    There you go again, Chappie, not taking the Bible as a whole.

    (Isaiah 64:6 NKJV) But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

    (Romans 3:9-21 NKJV) What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. {10} As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; {11} There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. {12} They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." {13} "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips"; {14} "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." {15} "Their feet are swift to shed blood; {16} Destruction and misery are in their ways; {17} And the way of peace they have not known." {18} "There is no fear of God before their eyes." {19} Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. {20} Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. {21} But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

    Sounds pretty total to me, and I think, to any reader of these verses who places his presupposition to not understand the gravity of these verses aside.

    You see, Chappie, even the great saints in the Old Testament had the righteousness of Christ imputed to them. And once Christ's righteousness is ours it is indeed our possession and can be talked about as ours for Christ is the substitute, both actively and passively, for His people.

    (Matthew 5:20 NKJV) "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

    (2 Corinthians 9:10 NKJV) Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness,

    No man stands before God in a righteous state unless Christ's righteousness is imputed to him.

    (Jeremiah 33:16 NKJV) In those days Judah will be saved, And Jerusalem will dwell safely. And this is the name by which she will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    (1 Corinthians 1:30 NKJV) But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God; and righteousness and sanctification and redemption;

    (2 Corinthians 5:21 NKJV) For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

    Man-made, man-honoring doctrines cannot stand in the light of the Scriptures.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite [​IMG]

    [ October 15, 2002, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Chappie,

    If we follow that argument - then Daniel saved himself by his own righteousness - and does not even need a savior - since his own righteousness is sufficent to save him - if not anyone else.

    On the otherhand - the emphasis on "By their OWN righteousness" does place an emphasis on something that they either did or chose and others did not, or others chose not. For example, if we replace the idea of "their own righteousness" with - Christ's own righteousness - then the argument becomes "by Christ's own righteousness they could only save themselves" - as if Christ could only save one person.

    Clearly then, it is not an appeal to Christ's righteousness "alone" since the case is made that ONLY 3 men would be saved by it. And neither is it man-righteousness-alone because then it would mean that man could save himself.

    It can only be the choice of man enabled by Christ to freely choose - and the righteousness of Christ.

    Bob
     
  4. Ray Berrian

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    I believe every sinner is 'depraved' but not to the extent that he cannot respond to the claims of the Gospel. The Holy Spirit is more than willing to minister to the searching heart and many who at first, are not receptive to His guidance. The 'Image of God' [James 39] is not totally expunged from our souls and He 'lights' [John 1:9b] every sinner who is born into our world on this planet that we call earth.

    If we are still made in the Image of God as our Calvinst writers agree with us, then is the Image of God in human beings also Totally Depraved? You see your problem, right? [​IMG]
     
  5. Primitive Baptist

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    I think it is totally sick for a totally depraved man to even hint to the fact that a man could save himself by his own righteousness. THE LORD IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
     
  6. Ray Berrian

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    God's truth shows that He has honored the 'free agency of man' because he or she is made in the image of God. God calls for belief in Him. God wants our trust in Him. God desires our faith in Him; without it we are honoring a theological belief but not Christ.
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    Primitive Baptist,

    You are correct. It is not our human righteousness that saves. It cannot save us. As you also know, the Bible tells us that ' . . . our righteousness is as filthy rags.' When we believe in Christ we receive the 'righteousness of Jesus Christ' [Romans 4:3,6,8] Thank God it is ours forever because of His infinite and wonderful plan of salvation.
     
  8. ForumChaplain

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    Pending further consideration of the passages, my intent was only to show that in the hands of a mighty God, our depravity dwarfts to nothing. He does not need to efficaciously grace us, he needs only to touch us. And this he has chosen to do through the Gospel.

    Ezek 14:20
    20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

    Indicated here is not a perfect man, nor men without sin before God. What is indicated is the small part that God has so gloriously and unselfishly allowed man to play in his salvation. {Goosebumps}

    What does the passage say? "they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness". God is not afraid, neither is he ashamed to share with his creation, the very best that he has to offer.

    If he gave us his only begotten Son, why is it so unthinkable that he would allow us a small monicum of freewill? God said that he will not share his glory with another, selfish huh? No!!!! We are the crowning glory of his creation. He will not share our love with another.. Dogs we may be, yet God loves us so very much. I can feel it in my bones, and I bow my head in awe of such love....

    Here the bible speaks of but three: Job, Noah, and Daniel; yet how many more names are unspoken. Perhaps David, perhaps John The baptist. How about Enoch? Still, Just as it would be unscriptural to add these names to the list, it would also be just as unscriptural to say that the list ends here. Is it not a blessing to contemplate.

    You can keep your God, I love mine, and i can find him in the scriptures.
     
  9. Frogman

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    AMEN!

    John 10.27;

    Bro. Dallas
     
  10. ForumChaplain

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    There is a difference between personal and imputed righteousness. Duuuh, there is none righteous. Speaks of the quality of our righteousness. True, when seen in the light of God's holiness, it is as dirty rags. Yet it is personal righteousness. God does not say that our righteousness is evil, it's just not good enough in light of his goodness.
    Ezek 14:20
    20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

    The passage does not say, "they shall but deliver their own souls by their {imputed} righteousness. It says, their righteousness, well that is at least before you fellas calvinise the passage that's what it says.

    You fellas cannot stop preaching Calvinism even long enough to allow a passage to say what it says. Men leading men, trying to get to heaven, and none know the way. Follow Christ and you will not have to calvinize scripture....
     
  11. Frogman

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    To preach calvinism is to preach Christ.

    The difference is made when we assume/or pretend to possess a righteousness apart from the righteousness of God in Christ.

    Matt. 5.20; and Rom. 10.3;

    Apart from hearing the call of God and receiving the righteousness of Christ; we are but self-righteous.
    God Bless.

    Bro. Dallas

    [ October 16, 2002, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]
     
  12. Scott J

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    "There is none righteous, no not one. There is none that understandeth. There is none that seeketh after God...There is none that doeth good, no not one."

    What you said is essentially true. Anyone who seeks God will find Him... However, no one will seek God acting within their own free will. God has predestined and will call the elect according to Romans 8.
     
  13. ForumChaplain

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    "There is none righteous, no not one. There is none that understandeth. There is none that seeketh after God...There is none that doeth good, no not one."

    What you said is essentially true. Anyone who seeks God will find Him... However, no one will seek God acting within their own free will. God has predestined and will call the elect according to Romans 8.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Are we on the same page here. This is not imputed righteousness that saves. In respect to salvation, there is none righteous, that refrencing a lifestyle. It does not mean that none ever does right.

    Ezek 14:14
    14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

    Jump all over the bible if you choose, you have not dealt precisely with what is said here. Untill you accept it and then place it within the context in which it is written.

    Listen!!!! "deliver but their own souls by their righteousness", running all over the bible to find contradictory statements does not solve your problem.

    The passage says "their righteousness". Out of respect for scripture tho, I must say that it does not referr in context to salvation. Let me see you do justice to this passage, i'll be waiting....

    [ October 16, 2002, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  14. KenH

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    1) Actually, in an absolute sense it does, as everything we do, say, or think is tainted by our sin nature and even continues after we are saved and still in fleshly bodies. The only standing we have before God to enter into His presence is the righteousness of Christ Jesus. As the hymn says so well, "dressed in His righteousness alone".

    2) The only side with a problem on this issue is yours, Chappie, as you are running around the Bible and appear to be trying to establish that you can be righteous on your own, apart from the righteousness of Christ Jesus. And in that task you destined to fail.

    Have a great day, my friend. [​IMG]

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  15. Scott J

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    I sincerely doubt it if you think it is man's goodness (ability to do right) that enables him to accept Christ.
    This is your distinction, not Paul's. Deal with the whole passage. He said "there is none that doeth good."
    It does mean that none ever do right for the right reason within their own will.

    This passage refers to physical deliverance. To attempt to draw larger meaning without respect to other scripture is to abuse the scripture.
    That is the context in which it was written.
     
  16. All about Grace

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    I normally stay out of this forum b/c I am so tired of this debate, but this sentence captured my attention:

    Does one really want to go this far in defending "Calvinism"? If so, does this mean to preach Calvin's view of the church, the state, and the sacraments is also to "preach Christ"?

    We must always remember that the primary JC in our lives should be Jesus Christ and not John Calvin :eek:

    I will get out of here before I get dragged into some lengthy discussion about infinite mysteries that cannot be solved in a finite forum [​IMG] [​IMG] .
     
  17. KenH

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    Before the anti-Calvinists jump on this, the use of the term "Calvinism" in this forum is referring to soteriology. For example, as a Baptist I would not agree with Calvin's paedo-baptism views. Preferably, we would refer to the the position that magnifies God's grace as the Doctrines of Grace but that is a longer name than to say Calvinism and we are stuck with it from its use in history. Unfortunately, it gives the anti-Calvinists a chance to take potshots at Calvin that are totally irrelevant to the soteriological position that we are discussing in this forum.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  18. ForumChaplain

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    Words spoken by a professing true calvinist to me on another board. Are they true or false??

    "Hi rev,
    Every Calvinist worth his salt will agree that there is such a thing as real temporal human righteousness in the context of total depravity. The righteousness of faith in the context of eternal life is the gift of God.
     
  19. ForumChaplain

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    Why didn't you tell me that you were not a real Calvinist. No wonder we cannot understand each other....

    All this time I thought that John Calvin had been regenerated and given the truth by God. Now I find out that he got some right and some wrong. Well, who is the final authority on what he got right and what he got wrong. You would think that after being chosen, graced, and regenerated, he could be trusted.

    Pastor Larry is right. I do not know what calvinists believe. I thought i could find out by reading John Calvin. Guess not. How many of you think that Calvin made a few bo boos while intrepreting scripture.

    I already have Ken's yes vote. Now i see why he is a Spurgeonite.

    [ October 16, 2002, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  20. KenH

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    Chappie,

    1) You have known I am a Spurgeonite.

    2) The problems I have with John Calvin's views on subjects such as baptism and church/state relations, are not relevant to soteriology, or salvation, issues.

    3) In your post 2 posts above this one of mine, I guess you have found the one person in the world who has the authority to speak on behalf of Calvinism. :eek: But like I said, I'm a Spurgeonite. [​IMG]

    Have a great day, my friend.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite

    [ October 16, 2002, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     

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