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Featured Total Depravity or Free Will in this tract?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by evangelist6589, Sep 28, 2014.

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  1. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    I appreciate that, brother.
     
  2. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    I'll agree to that. Directness is a virtue these days.

    I will own up to the high probability that I misread you. One thing to know about me, James, is that I will ardently defend my own faith, and often I'll let that ardent defense cloud more reasonable discussion. It's one of the negatives of being passionate about something.

    I'm sorry if I was offensive, which I'm sure I was. Truthfully, I do put weight on the experience, though the experience is not the foundation. Christ is the foundation our faith is built upon. He is the Rock our houses should be set upon; the cornerstone...you know the titles...

    But I give weight to experience, because I see those things as (as Jeremiah put it) waymarks and high heaps, milestones along the highway, if you will. Does that provide a better sense of my point of view on the topic?
     
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    You know though....while I got you James, you posted at one time that Arminians & Calvinists are much alike. I now believe them both to be 2 sides of the same coin. So, in short you were right.:thumbs:
     
  4. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    Thanks again. And knowing that makes me shake my head when I see them have such volatile debates.
     
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Is it because they dont think they are the same?
     
  6. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    Man, if you thought you were being offensive, you might not last long around here - lol

    That read like someone who was just having a hard time keeping his composure. I honestly didn't mean to cast doubt on your standing with Christ. I apologize, too, for my tone.

    All I'm trying to convey is that scripture makes several declarations, and that our experience must be weighed against them.

    We are justified through faith
    Faith comes by hearing the word of God
    We are born again through the word of God which is preached
    Forgiveness is to those who believe in Christ.
    He who believes in Christ has passed from death to life.

    There are others, too. But the gist of it is that we hear (or read) the gospel of Christ. The Holy Spirit convinces us of the truth of that promise from God. We come to rely upon Christ and His death, blood, and resurrection alone.

    But what we don't see is any admonition to ask Jesus into our heart, nor do we find any scriptural example for that. And our truth must be derived from scripture.

    Suppose someone says this prayer, and they also are hoping only in Christ. Which comes first? Faith or the prayer? It is my contention that one or the other had to come first.

    Now, let's put some time between to two. Maybe 5 years.

    Suppose I hope in Christ alone in 2005, but I don't ask Jesus to save me until 2010

    Or suppose I ask Jesus to save me in 2005, but I don't hope in Christ alone until 2010

    Does God look at the prayer we said, or faith in His promise? Some try to act like it's not a big deal, like God will just take whichever comes first.

    But scripture simply doesn't bear that out. Faith is the biblical access into God's grace. Regardless of our desire for eternal life, or our desire to obey God, or a perceived act of humility by saying a prayer.....

    Scripture is clear. If you do not believe the gospel, you will die in your sins. And that righteousness is credited on account of faith. Not a decision, but faith.
     
  7. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    That's exactly what it is.

    They're so hung up on certain details, they can't see that the end result is the same either way.
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    WARNING.....NEVER dare to have any other conclusion but their own.....then you will get labeled any number of pejoratives in the arsenal:laugh: Now if you got moxie, that's another story. :laugh:
     
  9. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    :laugh:
     
  10. salzer mtn

    salzer mtn Well-Known Member

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    Tony I to prayed when the Lord converted me. A few days previous to this I was in a church service when the Holy Spirit smote me and brought heavy conviction in my heart. The evening when the Lord revealed his salvation in me I was all by myself with a great burden on my soul. I did pray as also the publican did when he said, God be merciful to me, a sinner. But actually after I had prayed and was still in despair I looked up into heaven and said, Lord I know you can save me, if You will. This is when his Spirit bore witness with my spirit that I was a child of God. He sent forth his Spirit into my heart crying Abba Father. The easy believism crowed cannot stand this but I was there and no one led me down a Romans road.
     
  11. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    I stand by my experience, though as I tried to relate, the experience is just one part of the journey. I truly believe Jeremiah wrote it best when he wrote that we should set up waymarks. These experiences we have, regardless the impact we allow them in our lives, can serve as waymarks and milestones to us.

    In no way am I equating my experience with the notion of "easy believism." If you had been in my shoes that night, you'd know there was nothing "easy" about it. Like you, I was not led through some rote prayer or anything of the sort. Everyone in the room was praying on their own accord. I know for a fact that during my prayer the peace of God came upon me. Within me, the turmoil was settled. I knew where I stood, even if I wasn't old enough or well-spoken enough to lay out line upon line and precept upon precept. It was, and still is, a matter of faith.
     
  12. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Opposite sides.
     
  13. gigabyte71

    gigabyte71 Member

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  14. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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  15. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    is that anything like Zoftig.....Paul is Zoftig.....well well well!:laugh:
     
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Which ones Heads & which one is tails?
     
  17. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Rippon, I have the highest respect for you, but, lately your fellow Calvinist seem to be proving what EWF said.
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Yea....and I want to be wrong, that is the crummy part about it.:(
     
  19. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    To those who say the truth lies somewhere between Calvinism and Arminianism: "It does not. There is nothing between them but a barren wilderness." C.H. Spurgeon
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    So the church is either of the two? That statement should upset most non Calvinists....including Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists etc.
     
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