Total Depravity

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by D B Cook, Sep 4, 2002.

  1. D B Cook

    D B Cook
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    Arguing about predestination starts at the wrong end of the discussion. We must take the Scripture's statements about the human condition after the fall. Man is dead in sin. He has no spiritual life or capacity to make a "decision" to trust God's Messiah. Life for the spiritually dead comes as it did to the Adam's newly created body and Lazarus' corpse. God breaths the Spirit into the corpse and Christ calls and the dead rises to a life of faith and obedience.
    The proclamation of Christ as God's appointed King/Saviour is the instrumental means of giving this life. The soul touched by God responds in faith and is justified on the basis of Chirst work, person and priestly office.

    [ September 04, 2002, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: D B Cook ]
     
  2. M Wickens

    M Wickens
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    I don't want to sound rebellious, but what if the soul doesn't want to be "touched"?
     
  3. russell55

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    No one wants the touch until they receive it, but the second they receive it, they know it is all they have ever wanted.....
     
  4. Robert Nicholson

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    Greetings:

    The first man to die from disobedience of course is Adam. God said, "For in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" Gen. 2:17

    The point I am trying to make here is that Adam was dead to God because of his sin, but he was not deaf.

    He and Eve became ashamed of their nakedness and tryed to cover themselves with their own works, ie., sewing fig leaves together.

    "They heard the voice of the Lord...and hid themselves" Gen. 3:8 God called Adam "Where art thou" God knew all about it, but wanted to hear it from Adam.

    Adam then begins blaming Eve and Eve the serpent. We find however, it was God who clothed them with coats of skins which is a type of the righteousness which believers are clothed the moment they trust Christ.

    Robert
     
  5. Son of Coffee Man

    Son of Coffee Man
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    Just wanted to interject this:

    David Hunt has recently put out a book doing a good job of looking at Calvinism. It is called "What love is this?"

    Worth looking into.

    SoCM
     
  6. TheRadicalOne

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    I have to say this, even though I am not a Calvinist, I have to warn that Dave Hunt has not the knowledge about Calvinism to write a book like that. I listened to one of the "debates" with James White some months ago and Hunt didn't know what Calvinists believe. I haven't read the book but I doubt it worths the time.
     
  7. tyndale1946

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    This subject has been exhausted... Hit search in Post a reply... Go to show all topics... Type in Tulip... You will see every post on the Tulip related threads we discussed. Total Depravity was throughly gone through in The T in the TULIP doctrine... I know I started it and we went through each letter. If it is not closed you can type in bump and bring it to the top of the post!... Hope this helps!... I just brought it up and you can add to it if you want!... Brother Glen :cool:

    [ September 04, 2002, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  8. Ray Berrian

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    Sonofcoffeeman,

    I just spent $35.00 on a hardback book. My next book will be David Hunt's book. At a quick glance at Hackman's Book Store I noticed a few sentences that gives me the idea that he has some insights that I should know about. Thanks for your confirmation as to the value of this book.
     
  9. Son of Coffee Man

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    Ray (and others),

    I am (although not label crazy) and independent baptsist on the side of fundamentalism. The book was mentioned to me by a heavy reading instructor here at my school. He, and others who have finished reading it, are calling it the most important read of every Bible believing pastor today. As to its value? Well I am only on chapter 8 or so but all of the history of Calvinism and the quotes straight from his books (forgot what it is called) are worth the price enough. That material, though, only comprises the first 3 or 4 chapters.

    Like I said, worth a read, regardless of your stand.

    SoCM
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    Hunt's book has been exposed as poorly researched, logically fallacious, and generally uninformed. Far from being the most important book pastor's should read, it serves only to show what happens when people do not know or understand the issues. See the following websites for information.

    What Love Is This?
    web page

    This is a book that everyone should be very wary of.
     
  11. Son of Coffee Man

    Son of Coffee Man
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    Pastor Larry

    So then you have read the whole book?

    SoCM
     
  12. AITB

    AITB
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    Wow!! That's the most awesome description of 'irresistable grace' I've ever read...thanks! :D

    AITB [​IMG]
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    Nope.
     
  14. pinoybaptist

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    Have you investigated the quotes ?
    Today's raves may be tomorrow's junk.
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    russell55,

    'No one wants the touch until they receive it . . .

    This philosophy is Divine manipulation.

    God the Holy Spirit draws people to Himself, He doesn't drag people in by the hair. Human beings get to make a choice. Really!
     
  16. KenH

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    You are right, Ray. We agree. [​IMG]

    And once God gives a person a new heart, he chooses to follow Christ. Without a new heart, he chooses to follow sin.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  17. Primitive Baptist

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    Paul sure didn't complain.

    "Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power." (Eph. 3:7)

    Neither did Peter.

    "(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)" (Gal. 2:8)

    Jeremiah either for that matter.

    "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jer. 1:5)
     
  18. russell55

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    Where in my post did I say He drags people by the hair? I said he gives them something they don't know they want until they get it, AND THEN THEY KNOW THEY WANT IT! That's hardly forcing anything on anyone.

    (Although you might want to look into the word "draw." It is quite a strong word--"woo" doesn't quite do it justice, unless fish caught in a net are "wooed" to shore.)

    Of course they do. Did I say they didn't? Those who receive the drawing touch choose to come because they want to come.

    Please stop putting words in my mouth (or typing words on my keyboard)! You may imagine that the only way God can accomplish this "drawing" is to drag people by the hair, forcing them into the kingdom against their will, but I certainly don't believe that.

    Well, if you want to call a God who is the source of every good thing or act or choice, and who continually restrains evil, so that things are never as bad as they would be without His restraining hand a Divine Manipulator, then go ahead.

    I prefer to call Him Sovereign God, The One Who Does His Will in the Armies of Heaven and Among the Inhabitants of the Earth, Whose Hand No One Can Restrain.
     
  19. Ray Berrian

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    An over extended view of sovereignty leads to the view that God steps into a person's life, changes their heart and then they have to respond as God chooses. Remember, all of His attributes have to remain in perfect balance.

    When the Gospel is presented a human makes his or her own choice. God the Spirit works on human beings, if you will, but He never tilts the balance into regenerating and giving them faith, without their consent. [Acts 7:51] clearly dilineates the fact that some humans reject His call to salvation. In these cases, God cannot and does not regenerate these persons.

    John 5:40 reminds us that there is a human responsibility to go to God, if one desires everlasting life.

    Deal with the Scriptures and your theology will take care of itself.
     
  20. ForumChaplain

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    Where in my post did I say He drags people by the hair? I said he gives them something they don't know they want until they get it, AND THEN THEY KNOW THEY WANT IT! That's hardly forcing anything on anyone.

    (Although you might want to look into the word "draw." It is quite a strong word--"woo" doesn't quite do it justice, unless fish caught in a net are "wooed" to shore.)

    Of course they do. Did I say they didn't? Those who receive the drawing touch choose to come because they want to come.

    Please stop putting words in my mouth (or typing words on my keyboard)! You may imagine that the only way God can accomplish this "drawing" is to drag people by the hair, forcing them into the kingdom against their will, but I certainly don't believe that.

    Well, if you want to call a God who is the source of every good thing or act or choice, and who continually restrains evil, so that things are never as bad as they would be without His restraining hand a Divine Manipulator, then go ahead.

    I prefer to call Him Sovereign God, The One Who Does His Will in the Armies of Heaven and Among the Inhabitants of the Earth, Whose Hand No One Can Restrain.
    </font>[/QUOTE]You say that once a person is zapped with this irresistible grace, they chose to come because they want to.

    Could you please define for me, the word "irresistible"? Seems to me, that you might want to think this one through.

    "AND THEN THEY KNOW THEY WANT IT"! What do they know, they have been irresistibly brainwashed. It is now impossible for them to know anything else..

    BTW. Because God does things one way or the other, does not establish sovereignty. Sovereignty is ones moral and legal right to rule. It is more an issue of legality to do as one pleases.

    Irresistible Grace does not illustrate sovereignty, it illustrates choice, it illustrates power. This is evidenced by the fact that had God chosen to use either freewill or irresistible grace, he would still be a sovereign God.

    When I bring logic and reason to bare, I have never seen efficacious grace to be this great and merciful agent that Calvinist suppose it to be. {It tortures for eternity more than it saves.} It is apparent that all that embrace this doctrine definitely, (Without scriptural evidence.) suppose themselves to be saved by it. Without a scripture with my name in it, I would not trust this grace out of my sight for a moment.

    Everybody yelling efficacious grace, efficacious grace, is not saved. I can only wonder if those that believe in it; yet are in effect not saved; will still see it as such a glorious concept when they wake up roommates for eternity with the ones that they cared so little about in this life.

    Narrow is the gate, and few there be that find it. {Poor fellows don't know that God has hidden the gate}

    [ September 12, 2002, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     

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