Total Depravity

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, Jun 8, 2014.

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  1. steaver

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    Total Depravity:
    Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
    The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

    Found this on the calvinistcorner website and was wondering if anyone else here can see the obvious oxymoron and errors of conclusions?

    1) He says we are completely sinful, and then says we are not as sinful as we could be.

    2) He concludes man is incapable. One must dismiss and ignore multitudes of Scripture in order to come to such a conclusion.

    3) He concludes therefore God must predestinate, but leaves out the very important "according to God's foreknowledge".

    How did Moses, Job, David, Isaiah, etc...choose and desire God, seeing regeneration of the Spirit is a NT implementation and was not yet given until Jesus Christ was glorified (John7:39) ?
     
  2. convicted1

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    They all were regenerated by the Spirit, but not permanently indwelt. You have to figure out in the OT, there was no permanent indwelling. The Spirit moved upon them to fulfill a God given task and then left. That is why most of them lived "fleshly" lives in the OT, imo. Abram lying to Pharoah about Sarai, David sleeping with Bathsheba, and then having her husband killed. Solomon worshipping with his wives' pagan gods, Samson telling Delilah his source of strength, just to name a few. Yet, in all their fleshly lives, they are resting from their labors...
     
  3. RLBosley

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    1.) Saying we are entirely sinful, every area of us is corrupted by sin, does not mean that everything we do is as sinful as possible. Jesus said that evil men can give good gifts for example. They were evil, not just that they did evil, but they were evil, yet still did something "good."

    2.) Jhn 6:44 NASB - "No one can (that is a statement of ability. It is not possible.) come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
    Jhn 6:65 NASB - And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

    3) Define foreknowledge. In the Bible foreknowledge is paired with God's predetermined plan. Not a reaction to foreseen actions.

    :thumbsup:
     
  4. Reformed

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    Total Depravity teaches that man is fallen in all his faculties but he is not as depraved (in practice) as he can be. IOW not every person is a Hitler. There are depths to depravity.

    Actually Scripture is clear on man's total inability:

    Romans 3:9-12 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one;11 There is none who understands,There is none who seeks for God;12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.”

    Romans 8:7,8 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

    God's foreknowledge simply means that God knows things before they happen. Why? Because God is omniscient. God predestines because Scripture says that He does (Romans 8:29, 30).
     
  5. Winman

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    This one is actually very easy to refute.

    #1 Yes, it is a direct contradiction to teach that we are enslaved by sin, and then say we are not as bad as we might be. That is a direct contradiction that CANNOT be true. If you are enslaved by sin, you will always be the very worst you can be, you can't help it.

    When the Bible teaches we are servants of sin, it is NOT teaching that we are compelled to sin, it is teaching that we BELONG to sin like a purchased slave. In fact, Paul said he was "sold under sin" (Rom 7:14).

    It's not that you can't do right, it's that it simply won't help you. You belong to sin, and he only pays one wage, DEATH. If you belong to sin, you are going to die.

    Thank goodness, when we believe on Jesus we are baptized into his body and died with him on the cross to sin (Sin being personified in scripture).

    Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Paul also compared being a servant of sin to a married woman. As long as her husband lives she is bound to him. But if he dies she is free to marry another and is no adultress. Then Paul says we have died to sin that we might be married to another, Jesus Christ.

    Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

    So, not only are we dead to sin, we are dead to the law and now raised with Christ and married to him. We are no longer under the law but grace, and the gift of grace is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Sinners can obey the gospel, Paul directly says this in Romans 6;

    Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    Paul does not teach that we are compelled to sin as many falsely teach, he teaches that we are servants to whom we "yield" ourselves, "whether" (option) of sin to death, "or" (option) obedience to righteousness. So we can choose to sin or obey.

    But note importantly that Paul says while these persons "were" the servants of sin, they obeyed the gospel. After obeying the gospel "then" they became free from sin, and "became" the servants of righteousness.

    Again, sin and righteousness are being personified here. We belonged to sin as a servant or slave, but the moment we believed the gospel, "then" we were made free from sin (because we died "in Jesus" to sin) and we "became" the slave or servant of righteousness.

    Total Inability is utterly false and EASILY refuted by scripture. Sinners can obey the gospel, and when they do they are made free from sin and become the servants of righteousness.

    Plain as day.
     
    #5 Winman, Jun 8, 2014
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  6. convicted1

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    Brother Steaver, we were slaves to sin because satan was our master. We are slaves to Christ now, because Christ is our Master.

    We can not serve two masters, because we will love one and hate the other....


    We are not masterless in this world at ANY time. We serve either satan....while a sinner, or serve Christ as a Christian....
     
  7. kyredneck

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    Absolutely helpless, destitute, disabled, impotent, powerless, as in:

    6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.
    8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; Ro 5
    5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), Eph 2

    Where on earth did you get that idea? Was there something better about folks prior to the cross that they didn't require being born of the Spirit?

    ....It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3:7,8

    God, who doesn't change, and Christ, who is the same today, yesterday, tomorrow, yea and forever, was not implementing a new thing, He was revealing a mystery from of old, something that had always been.

    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
    29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4
     
    #7 kyredneck, Jun 9, 2014
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  8. Yeshua1

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    Jesus said that ALL of us, before coming to been saved by Him, were slaves to our sin natures...

    ONLY those whom the Son sets free, are free indeed...

    was he wrong, and you are right?
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    And since sin no longer has dominion over us once having been saved and granted new natures...

    IF we have ONLY the natures created in us when physically born, and when spiritual reborn, when did sin nature get in us again?
     
  10. steaver

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    Folks prior to the death burial, resurrection, and glorification of Jesus Christ were saved based on their faith in the "Promise" having died not yet receiving the fulfillment of that "Promise"...."And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:"(Heb11:39)

    Does everyone understand what the "Promise" is?

    You are misunderstanding Gal 4:29. It is out of context to suggest this "born after the Spirit" here is speaking about regeneration. You must read Gal chapter 3, then you will understand 4:29 is speaking of God's promise to Abraham to bring forth a son through Abraham, which in time would bring forth the promise of Jesus Christ, which would bring to Abraham's seed the promise of the Holy Spirit/Eternal Life/Regeneration/Christ In You.

    God is unfolding His "Promise" in "Time". The Holy Spirit regeneration "part" did not happen until after Jesus' glorification (John 7).

    Gal 3:19 - " Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

    Gal 3:14 - "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

    Faith to Faith, saved through Faith, both then and now. However, now we have more of the promise revealed and implemented than they. They had not yet received as we have now, and they have now also, only they did not receive it in their life time on earth.

    Calvinism desperately needs regeneration to be pre-cross or the whole TULIP falls apart with the exception of Preservation through regeneration. There is absolutely no scripture to support pre-cross regeneration and in fact much scripture to support that it is post cross as I have already posted just a couple of many.
     
  11. Winman

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    Excellent post Steaver and right on the money. Nobody received the indwelling Spirit until after Jesus rose from the dead.

    I personally believe OT saints had to wait in Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16) precisely because they did not have the Holy Spirit yet. I believe that after Jesus ascended to heaven and sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat, he returned and led those captives free, and giving them the "gift" of the Holy Spirit.

    Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

    Now all believers immediately receive the Holy Spirit and are sealed until the day of redemption. We cannot possibly lose salvation.

    You are also correct that Calvinism desperately needs to prove OT regeneration, but scripture does not support it. We are directly told that believers would not receive the Spirit until Jesus had risen and was glorified.

    Jhn 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
    38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
    39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    Scripture does not support Calvinism. Several Calvinist doctrines are refuted here, Limited Atonement is refuted in vs. 37, Total Inability is refuted in vs. 38, and the false teaching that regeneration precedes faith is refuted in vs. 39.
     
    #11 Winman, Jun 11, 2014
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  12. steaver

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    You are absolutely correct. There would be no other reason or explanation for those in Abraham's Bosom/Paradise having to be led out as they rejoiced in seeing and experiencing the Promise they had placed their faith in.
     
  13. Yeshua1

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    So King David, and the prophets, did not have the Holy Spirit residing within them, even though peter said both of them did?
     
  14. steaver

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    The Holy Spirit is ALWAYS at work. Regeneration was not implemented until after the glorification of Jesus Christ, this really should not even be up for a debate seeing how John made it perfectly clear in chapter 7 of his gospel.

    If you believe that speaking by the Holy Ghost is regeneration, then you must believe God regenerated the ass in Numbers 22.

    "And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times."

    The Holy Spirit works in many different ways. One needs not to be regenerated in order to speak the words of the Lord God. Unless of course you want to believe the ass was born-again, don't suppose you want to believe that.
     
  15. Yeshua1

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    Were the believer sin the OT times such as Abraham/david saved then?
     
  16. Winman

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    Of course they were saved, they were imputed or made "righteous".

    Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    Abraham was not in reality righteous, he was a sinner just like we all are. But when he believed God, righteousness was imputed or put on his account. He was "made righteous".

    Likewise Jesus never sinned, but he willingly took on our sin, he was "made sin" for us.

    2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    2 Cor 5:21 is not teaching that Jesus was made a sinner as people falsely interpret Romans 5:19. It is not saying Jesus took on a sin nature, it is simply saying our sin was placed on his account, so that he was able to die "for us".

    This is what Romans 5:19 is actually teaching, that both Adam and Jesus were the legal precedents for those who followed in their footsteps.

    Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Legal precedence in law is a prinicipal where the first person to commit a particular crime (but it can be a legal act as well) is used to establish the judgment and punishment for that crime in subsequent like cases. Those who commit the same act afterward are judged the same, and punished the same. This establishes fairness and consistency under the law to all persons.

    When Adam sinned in the garden he was judged "a sinner". This is a legal term, like the term "felon".

    Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

    Today we call everybody a sinner, but in Bible days this term was only applied to particularly sinful persons, such as a prostitute.

    Luk 7:37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
    38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
    39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

    So, because of Adam, persons who willfully and knowingly sin are judged or "made a sinner", just as Jesus was "made sin". This is a JUDGMENT under the law. Likewise, as Adam was sentenced to death for that first sin, men who sin afterward are likewise sentenced to death.

    Being "righteous' is also a legal term. This judgment is imputed. Abraham was not truly righteous, he sinned, but he was imputed or "made" righteous.

    Pro 13:21 Evil pursueth sinners: but to the righteous good shall be repayed.

    So, being a sinner or being righteous is not describing our nature or our constitution, it is describing our legal standing or position before God.

    Jesus was the legal precedent for those who believe and trust God, just as Jesus trusted his Father to raise him from the dead. Those who trust Jesus to raise them from the dead are imputed or "made righteous" and are given the free gift of eternal life.

    Romans 5:19 is not saying because of Adam's sin that every man's nature was perverted and that he took on a sinful nature, just as 2 Cor 5:21 is not teaching that Jesus took on a sinful nature when he was "made sin".

    Folks do not understand that Paul was speaking in legal terminology in Romans. He was saying those who sinned as Adam did were judged or "made" sinners as he was, and those who believe are judged or "made" righteous as Jesus was under the law.

    If folks grasp this scripture will become crystal clear.
     
    #16 Winman, Jun 12, 2014
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  17. The Biblicist

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    They confuse the baptism in the Spirit which is the promise of institutional indwelling with individual indwelling. In every single gospel promise of the coming Spirit it is directed only to water baptized believers already individually indwelt with the Holy Spirit but would corporately as an institutional "house of God" would be indwelt.

    Paul makes this clear distinction in 1 Cor. 3:16 where a plural "you" is a singular temple - the church versus 1 Cor. 6:17 where it is a singular "you" as a singular temple - the human body.

    It does no good to debate them because they simply do not possess the necessary Biblical background to even comprehend Biblical salvation. If they understood even a little bit about Biblical salvation they would realize that are only two possible categories of humans - Rom. 8:7-8 - and salvation is utterly impossible apart from spiritual union with God because spiritual death is separation from God. I don't even attempt to respond to their posts as it is a waste of time.
     
  18. kyredneck

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    :thumbsup:
     
  19. Iconoclast

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    The Biblicist

    .

    :thumbs:....Yes...a false teachers likes to teach...it is just that the content is always wrong as we see here day in day out...

    text of scriptured butchered....


    Well..you have already exposed them:thumbs:
     
  20. The Archangel

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    "Justification" is a legal term. Righteousness is not used in that forensic way.

    The Archangel
     
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