Total Inability

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Farley, Nov 1, 2002.

  1. Farley

    Farley
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    Total Depravity (Total Inability)
    Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.

    The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5).

    What part of this statement is false my arminian friend?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  2. KenH

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    Amen, Brother Farley. Right on! [​IMG]

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite :cool:
     
  3. Ray Berrian

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    Total Ability . . . John 3:16. 'For God so loved the world that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM shall not perish but have everlasting life.' [​IMG]
     
  4. ScottEmerson

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    Ephesians 2:1-5 nowhere says that the man did not receive the grace on his own free will. Becoming alive is the result of grace, but the passage does not exclude man receiving free grace. The Holy Spirit must draw him first though, and He draws all men.

    [ November 03, 2002, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
     
  5. npetreley

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    You left out a part...

    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    But that's not my point. Here's my point. Try this exercise:

    22 "Have faith in God," Jesus answered. 23 "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him.

    If you have the free will to believe whatever you want to believe without the assistance of the Holy Spirit, I'm sure you can apply that free will to believe you can tell Mount Everest to throw itself into the sea and it will obey. After all, if you can't trust what Jesus said, what can you trust? So have at it!

    I'll check Fox News now and then to see when you've completed this assignment. ;)
     
  6. BobRyan

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    The part that says "innability" without God - is the part - that BOTH the Calvinist and Arminian views can agree on.

    The "difference" is that the Arminian view applies the "supernatural drawing of God" John 12:32 to "ALL mankind" drawn to God By God - as His sovereign choice. His Power, His Choice to enable choice.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Grasshopper

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    Too me, TULIP makes it or breaks it on Irresistible Grace. Calvanism says it cannot be resisted, others say it can.
     
  8. npetreley

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    But, as Luther points out, if man is unable to choose God without the supernatural drawing of God (or grace, or however you label it), then how can the will be free? To paraphrase Luther, that's like saying a rock has the free will to go up or down, although it can only go down of its own power and needs the power of someone or something else to lift it in order to go up.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    If we say that a rock can only fall down - then indeed there is no choice.

    But if we claim that God takes "ALL rocks" and makes them into Frogs so that they may now "Choose" to go up or down - and some choose up but the "many" of Matt 7 choose down - they DO indeed have "choice and Free Will".

    The "Drawing" of John 12:32 is supernatural enabling of the "Rock" so that it is now a Frog - able to "Choose" life or death.

    Having DRAWN and ENABLED - "ALL MANKIND" John 12:32

    Christ stands at the door and knocks - those who choose to pay attention - to "HEAR" and to OPEN the door of the heart - have Christ COME IN.

    All mankind are enabled because all are drawn - but all do not "choose life" even though they are supernaturaly enabled to do so.

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. tnelson

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    Eph.2:1 And you hath He quickened, who were (dead) in trespasses and sins;

    Dead = Total inability.

    by His Grace

    mike
     
  11. Yelsew

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    Man has no innate power to save himself. And that is what this argument is all about. Nothing man can do merits him notice by the One living God. God demonstrated his Power several times in Old Testament times, the flood in which God destroyed all but 8 humans, Sodom and Gomorrah in which he destroyed all the inhabitants of those cities except Lot, his wife and two younger daughters, the waterlogged altar and offerings, etc.

    Man does however have the power to make individual choices, every man ever living on this planet has that "ability". To deny that to man is to deny that man is made in the image of God!

    We choose based on what is offered to us as choices.

    Satan says we can do anything we want, and even become as gods ourselves. But nowhere does Satan offer eternal life or life in the presence of the one living God.

    Jesus offers all who will believe in him, even on his name, the right to receive the salvation that comes only through belief in Jesus and to become the sons of God, co-heirs to Jesus Glory!

    Now tell me that you do not have the power to choose one of those, and I'll tell you, you are foolish, because you do have that power, it is innate in humanity, God put it there in the creation, and has not removed it from us.
     
  12. Farley

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    Yelsew, please tell me what part of your nature is not fallen? Did the fall of Adam and our being in him before salvation really mean in Adam all die? What part of your nature is left untouched by the fall? Just your "free will".
     
  13. Frogman

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    We do in fact claim that God does take and make rocks into frogs so that they are then enabled to "choose" to go up or down.

    It is evident this is not an universal occurrane, however, as some "rocks" just collect more and more worldly sedimnent and finally are weighted down into the pit by this nature.

    If God performed the change of the nature in all men, then all men would be changed, and then your theory of all men would be true; if God has performed the change of the nature of all men and men now being changed are able to choose God, then obviously, God is made dependent upon His creation in order to receive the Glory that was His before He ever took nothing and created the universe.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  14. npetreley

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    As far as I can tell this seems to be a brand new theology, so let me see if I understand what you're saying.

    Adam had free will (frog). Adam sinned. That brought the fall of the human race, whereupon our will was bound to sin (rock). But after Jesus came and died for our sins, God gave mankind his free will back (frog), which enabled mankind to either accept or reject the offer of salvation.

    Is this what you're saying?
     
  15. Frogman

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    Except, this is taken from the context of speaking to the churches and is misapplied when used generally of the heart of man. The fact of the matter is man if supernaturally enabled, will always choose that which results in the Blessings from God; if not, this supernatural is no more "super" than any other "natural" means used by man to choose something or not to choose.

    If we assume God does provide this supernatural enabling power to all men, then we assume the power of the will of man is greater than that of God, making a little God and a BIG man.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  16. Frogman

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    We are eternal beings. The difference in the eternal life, which is offered to all through the preaching of the Gospel, is not the choosing of it by one, but not another, but the effectual working of the Holy Spirit in those individuals to cause them to choose this.

    yes men have a free choice, but this free choice is depraved with the rest of the man nature. If not, it simply would not have been a requirement for Jesus to come into the world and to have suffered and died, having lived a righteous life. Men would have actually been able to choose the righteousness which is the Standard of God found in the Law of God and would have lived.

    Man could not consistently perform the Law of God, so God sent His only Begotten Son to perform that righteousness we are then granted His righteousness, through the power of the Holy Spirit when we are enabled to choose to believe.

    This choice, however viewed, is acted upon by the agency of the Holy Spirit, otherwise, men would choose to believe, not be able to any good works, they would become frustrated and give up. None would be in heaven.

    All the works of salvation are of God, man has no part, until he is acted upon he is simply unable to believe. Why else is this gospel called 'foolishness'?

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  17. Ray Berrian

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    Before [Genesis 1:26 & 27] and after the Fall in the Garden God still makes human beings after His likeness. [James 3:9]

    Christ is the 'image of God' [II Corinthians 4:4 c] and has always been this way.

    If we are in the 'image of God' and we are, then we are not totally depraved just as God is not totally depraved or in any way tained by and kind of sin. [I John 3:5] Depraved yes; Totally Depraved no. Why? Because we were created in the 'image of God' [James 3:9] and He 'lights' every human being/sinner coming into the world. [John 1:9 b]

    Admittedly, we have the Adamic nature until death or the 'rapture of the church.' [I Thessalonians 5:23] but due to the drawing, convicting, and convincing power of the Holy Spirit [John 16:8] He does enable us to believe [John 6:35] and trust in Jesus [Acts 2:21 b] before giving to us His grace. [Ephesians 2:8 & 9]

    Although God does call people to faith, He never overrides the autonomy and personhood of the sinner. [John 5:40 & Acts 7:51 & Acts 26:28] ' . . . ye do always resist the Holy Spirit . . . '

    Documentation of truth is what makes Arminianism infinitely closer to the truth than Calvinism. If you need more Scriptural evidence I can find it for you. [​IMG]
     
  18. Farley

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    47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
    48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
    Acts 13 [​IMG]
     
  19. Frogman

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    This may be documentation of scripture, however, your two paragraphs possess opposing ideas, how do you reconcile

    with

    Your scripture are there, your interpretation errs. In the first you say God does enable us to believe, in the second you venture to say He never overrides the autonomy and personhood of the sinner.

    Which of these do you propose as truth?

    I believe God and God alone enables sinners to believe, without this I believe noone shall be saved. I can produce Bible scripture as well.

    John 6.29, 44 are but two

    "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." 6.29

    "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." 6.44

    6.37 or 5.37-47.

    God Bless.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  20. tyndale1946

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    As many as were ordained to eternal life believed... Notice what Farley says... They didn't believe to get eternal life they believed because they already had it!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     

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