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Traditional Baptist positions

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Alcott, Sep 30, 2007.

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  1. Total abstinence from alcoholic beverages

    19 vote(s)
    25.7%
  2. No personal or business ‘work’ on Sundays except for “necessity and mercy'

    13 vote(s)
    17.6%
  3. Proper church clothing should be coats & ties, or dresses at least mid-length

    7 vote(s)
    9.5%
  4. Only non-divorced adult males should be ordained as ministers or deacons

    24 vote(s)
    32.4%
  5. Smoking should be disallowed in the church, but in private it’s up to the individual

    39 vote(s)
    52.7%
  6. Faithful members should give at least a tithe (10%) of income to the church

    29 vote(s)
    39.2%
  7. We should pray for the sick and injured, but be unsurprised if there is no ‘miracle’

    46 vote(s)
    62.2%
  8. Government power should be used to suppress alcoholic beverages and gambling

    13 vote(s)
    17.6%
  9. The church should not look to government to promote its doctrines

    58 vote(s)
    78.4%
  10. I don’t agree with any of these ‘traditional’ positions

    2 vote(s)
    2.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. tjfkbrawny

    tjfkbrawny New Member

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    It is a fairly recent development.

    I do not think it is untrue, but the opposite is pressed as a biblical injunction, that if you do not have personal daily devotions, you cannot be spiritual.

    The Welsey's were called Methodists for practicing their "MEthod" of spirituality which centered on personal daily devotions and prayer.
     
  2. Gayla

    Gayla New Member

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    The poll is about traditional Baptist positions.
     
  3. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    These positions separately are not unique to Baptists, but taken together they make up what I (and some others) see as 'traditional Baptist positions.' Catholics have never opposed alcohol, for instance, nor have Baptists opposed it from their beginning (contrary to the one said he supports Baptist positions that were the same in 2007, 1907...1607). I don't know if Spurgeon smoked his cigars in the church facilities, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me. And almost all Christian denominations promulgated the indea of "Sunday clothes" until quite recently, and some still do. These example should be sufficieint to answer your question.

    Now... how do you read your New Testament and get alcohol must be totally abstained from, the we should wear coats & ties or midlength dresses, that members must tithe, that no works other than 'necessity and mercy' should be done on Sundays.....? And what kind of musical recordings did you throw away and how did you arrive at that conclusion?
     
  4. 4boys4joys

    4boys4joys New Member

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    I understand the spirit or your post and poll as well. I was just making a point that maybe would show another side of this. Those decisions were made based on deriving a principle based on scripture. When I read about not being a stumbling block to others I started to wonder if having alcohol,certain types of music or clothes may cause a problem when I told others about what I had done. I did not think my family would take me seriously. It was the spirit. That was my path and I was just sharing it.

    I did not know Baptist from a gas station then and I thought it would show how God works. For those who were brought up in that it is tradition. To me it is a work of grace that happened in my life.

    As far as the music I do not remember it. I was a musician then and now and so music was a process with me. I decided to throw it all out and start over. If God wanted me to have it back he would show me if not then he would replace it with something that would keep me close. I read Abstain from all apearance of evil. And then I took things very literally, so I just did it,I took it all away and rebuilt with the Lord.

    You have to understand that I grew up around a very hypocritical type of "Christianity" suits on sunday,clubs on Monday. That kept me away from the Gospel, I just wanted to be different.

    I really do not know if I answered your question. In short it was applying things in principle based on what I read with prayer and going in the direction God wanted for me personally at the time and that has taken shape since. I do not read from the NT a list like the one you gave,it just became a list that happen to match the Baptist Church I first went to,so that is why I am Baptist today. HTH
     
  5. SaggyWoman

    SaggyWoman Active Member

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    Interesting views of the stands, particularly praying with no motivation for a miracle.
     
  6. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    This is the statement I have been waiting for; well, sort of, anyway. Many of us were raised with most, maybe all, the principles stated in the poll, and most of us, at some time and some way, went awry from many of them. And many of us who do that 'return to our roots' and begin to think somewhat highly of the old precepts we thought we wanted to be quit of. If we decide we want to be Baptist afterall, we tend to go back into those archives in our memories and bring some or all of them out again.

    Of course, this works in other subjects besides the spiritual side of life; such as family customs, patriotism [did you notice anyone who never flew their American flag, did so after 9-11? I did], and all the 'divides' in life, such as rural v. urban, isolation v. global.
     
  7. SaggyWoman

    SaggyWoman Active Member

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    Bless all the people at my church who attend recovery meetings. Right after the worship service, they all run out and smoke a puff or two.
     
  8. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Can one say other?? Try this
    Uh' isn't that the day the preacher works the hardest, usually? And who, exactly, gets to decide what constitutes ""necessity and mercy'", here?
    I'd bet a bunch of folks fell for this one. Read this 'option' carefully, folks.
    Try these short quotes, as well.
    I cannot speak about any other nation, apart from the United States of America, but that is what the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation and the U. S. Constitution say, in this regard. The first two give some deference to God, as a Supreme Being, and the Constitution says something regarding freedom of Religion, as well. And all say something about laws. For whatever reason, the Commonwealth of KY, has "wet" and "dry" areas defined and how they get to be this way, in her Constitution, and laws. I personally prefer, and do live in a 'dry' area. I'm fairly sure the church, of which I am a member, is opposed to the sale of alcohol, as well. It is illegal to sell alcoholic beverages in a "dry" area. My personal preference, church teaching, and government law are all opposed to beverage alcohol. So here, all three are in agreement. Hence, the government, when doing its job, lines up exactly with me, and at least, the majority of my church, with the result that it "promotes" mine, and our church's doctrine. Bit of a dilema, no??

    That is why I prefer "other" as a response, but since it is not permitted in the poll, I did not vote, for the ten choices offered are a little too much like Hobson's Choice, IMO.

    Ed
     
  9. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed New Member

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    We had our annual meeting this past weekend and I had the opportunity to talk at great length with a dear old minister. He and his wife had just moved back to Louisiana from Arkansas, so I anticipate being able to see more of him now. Anyway, he loves chewing tobacco. We were talking about using it in the church, and he told me that it was not uncommon years ago for ministers to light up a cigarette when they got out of the stand from preaching, and not uncommon for brethren to smoke during the service.

    I also know that it was not uncommon for men (and women) to "chew" during the service because I have been in older churches that still contain the spitoons beside the pews.

    I would say almost all of these "traditions" laid out in this thread are really no more than about 100 years old.

    Smoking and alcohol opposition are certainly on the newer side of traditionalism.

    I voted only for the "church should not look to the government" option.
     
    #29 Bro. James Reed, Oct 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2007
  10. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed New Member

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    If I pray for healing on someone who is sick, and they are physically healed, it is a miracle.

    If I pray for healing on someone who is sick, and they die, it is a miracle.

    There is healing in both instances, just maybe not the kind that we as humans would like.

    When I pray for someone who is sick, I try to pray for healing, for mercy, for comfort (for the family and the sick one), and for us to be reconciled to the Lord's will.

    These were the prayers sent up on behalf of my grandmother when she was in the hospital with pneumonia for 3 weeks in August. She died August 31st and I can tell you that she truly did receive a miracle and was healed. She no longer has pneumonia and she will never have anymore dementia (which is what she actually died from).

    I thank God that He took her so that she would not have to live as a vegetable for years on end and be fed by tubes. She did not want that, nor did she want to live in a nursing home. She got her prayer just as we did.

    People ought to be praying for the right things and then they wouldn't be nearly as disappointed when what they pray for "doesn't occur".

    There was that country song years ago that went "Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers." I wouldn't have that. God answers all prayers. We just don't like the answers many times.
     
  11. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    This goes right along with what I said in the OP-- that one 'Baptist' characteristic that may be very hard to get away from is being extremely particular to the point that something is discounted because it isn't stated exactly right; 'right,' of course, being the most subjective word here.

    Anyway, as Baptists have no central authority, there's really no none who "gets to decide" what constitutes 'necessity and mercy;' not in this thread or in any versions of a "Baptist Faith and Message" or whatever. As a kid in the mid and late 60's, one thing I remember that was often talked about, and sometimes joked about, was mowing one's lawn or working in one's garden on Sundays. Our next door neighbor mowed her front lawn, and later she said, "I hope nobody really minds me mowing on Sunday, but this yard just needed it s' baaad!" :laugh: I don't know if that's more hilarious or more goofy. After all, I don't think I knew anybody who thought it was wrong to cook or wash on Sunday; as in colonial days a person might be fined or put in the stocks for doing these things. To sum up... no one should decide, because it's a moot point; the Bible says nothing about Sunday as some no-fun/no-frills day.
     
  12. jshurley04

    jshurley04 New Member

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    Dressing Choice

    I could not agree with the clothing option, I believe if a man has the legs to show off and mid-thigh skirt, he should be allowed to wear it to church.

    :wavey: :laugh: :thumbs:
     
  13. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    I know this verse was usually taught that we should abstain from anything that someone else might think was evil, but that interpretation (in my opinion) is wrong. Jesus did all sorts of things that others thought was wrong including healing on Sundays, cleansing the temple with a whip, and rejecting the piety of the Pharisees.

    The way I understand that verse is that we should abstain from evil every time it appears (when we have opportunity to participate). That makes the most sense to me from the biblical context.
     
  14. 4boys4joys

    4boys4joys New Member

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    I wasn't raised with all the principles in the poll. I started to build these things before I attended a Baptist church. It was God- and there is no other way to explain it.
     
  15. 4boys4joys

    4boys4joys New Member

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    If you read my post in context you will see that I was talking about the time when I was a new Christian. I understand that you see the verse differently. But for someone who was new in the Lord like me to take that verse literaly,was that so wrong. It helped me more than it hurt. I was not being taught by anyone, I was just doing all I could to live for God with the Bible and prayer.

    So what does abstain mean ? it means to withold oneself,restrain. I know there is no way that we can change perception. But I think it is a good practice to withhold from what God puts in our heart that looks evil to others or evil by definition or both so that we are not a stublingblock. This may not be in context but still a Godly practice than you can draw from the verse. Abstaining from evil when it appears is somewhat the same as restraining or witholding ourselves so I think in a way we agree.

    Do not take this the wrong way. I think it is OK to isolate a verse and take it literaly. We do that with many verses and apply it to living for Christ and it produces Godliness. I am realizing more and more I need to go back to that childlike faith. IMO.
     
  16. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Yes. I understood that. I was not criticizing your previous or current actions.

    Yes, but as a child in a Baptist Sunday School, I was taught that we were not to do anything that could possibly be construed as evil, including going to a movie theater, a restaurant where they dim the lights, or a night club (because dim lighting indicates that people are trying to “hide from God”). We also shouldn’t drink root beer because it has the word “beer” in it and people might think we were drinking alcohol. We could not use playing cards (especially “face cards” [that is, standard playing cards]) because other might think we were gambling, just like the soldiers who crucified Jesus. We also had to restrict activities on Sunday, including hobbies and playing outside, because someone might think we were working. I could continue the list of rules, but I think you get the picture.

    All of the rules were based around what other people might think about us instead of what God (Who knows our hearts) thinks about us. And the verse you cited regarding abstaining from every appearance of evil was used as the justification. But when I started paying attention to what Jesus did in the gospels, I realized that the verse can’t mean what so many people claims it means.

    The reason I responded to your mention of it was so others could also find freedom in Christ to do what is right instead of worrying ourselves with popular self-righteous religiousity.

    God judges us according to our motives and intentions, so I’m sure God was pleased by your zeal and desire to be obedient.

    And that’s great!

    Yep. When evil presents itself, abstain from it... have nothing to do with it... even if it looks very religious and pious.

    You’re right. There are always going to be people who will work hard to think the worst of us, even without any real justification. Those people are trying to find other people “worse” than themselves so they can feel better about their shortcomings. But we can’t let self-righteous people rule our lives and make us shrink back from what God wants us to do. And we must not let a culture of self-righteousness develop or exist within our congregations if we want to have a true spirit of community where individuals can be evangelized, discipled, grow in faith, build the Kingdom, and bring others to a relationship with Christ, because this spirit of self-righteousness does not allow for humility, honesty and redemption inside and outside the congregation.

    If God leads you to restrict a practice or an action because it might be a stumbling block to a person or group of people you minister to, then it is a good practice. But you are not allowed to judge others because they are not led to follow the same restrictions as you.

    I have to totally disagree here. This verse does not deal with voluntarily restricting yourself for the sake of those who are weaker in faith. Paul deals with that at some length in another place. (see Romans 14)

    Based on your previous comment, I think we agree only that we should abstain from evil. I sense that we still disagree on abstaining from things that might look evil to a self-righteous person.

    I’ll try not to. :D

    I very strongly disagree. When you “isolate a verse” (take it out of its context) you also often remove the intended meaning of the words. That verse (1 Thessolonians 5:22) must be read within the thought and context of 1 Thessolonians, which must be understood in the context of Paul’s thinking developed through all of his extant writing, which must be understood within the context of the teaching of Jesus, since Paul was a disciple (an apprentice) of Jesus. Interpreting that verse outside of that context leaves you wide open to interpreting it simply according to your own biases and experience, which essentially makes the verse mean whatever you think it should mean.

    Therefore, no single verse isolated from its original context can be considered an authoritative word from God.

    With all due respect, I don’t think it produces godliness. Godliness may be a product of God having mercy on you and your sincere desire to follow Him, but misusing scripture only works against that process.

    There is a very strong feeling among conservative Christians that Jesus wants us to have a “childlike faith” that’s passive, doesn’t know much, doesn’t think deeply, and doesn’t worry about studying or understanding scripture. But if we study scripture, we learn that God wants us to grow and not to be little children any longer. Furthermore, a “childlike faith” is exhibited by those who trust God like they used to trust their parents: they are active, obedient and set themselves about their Father’s business; they do not live in fear of the world, religious people or the evil one because they know that their Father will protect them; they trust that God will provide for their needs, yet they work for the benefit of the entire family; and they recognize that in themselves, they do not have the ability to prosper (in terms of righteous living) in the world without God, so they learn their character from their Father... how to speak, how to love, and how to live.

    Please understand, I’m not trying to shame you or win an argument. I’m simply trying to share some things I’ve learned over the years.
     
  17. 4boys4joys

    4boys4joys New Member

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    I truly understand what you mean about a list or being so sensitive to others that we are left a very short list of things that are "Godly" in nature. I find that with my first generation kids I have to make sure they do not worship a list but GOD HIMSELF.

    There is alot here and thank you for this response. Some of what I wrote was just to make a point. I would never isolate a verse to the point of taking away the message of a passage I see the danger in that. I do think that sometimes we get so caught up in our learning that we forget to keep the main thing the main thing. I do not feel we should be naive as Christians and we should leran all we can so that God can be glorified. There comes a point where God wants a young Christian to mature and understand spiritual things on a deeper level but yet have the spiritual balance to know when to follow him with a faith that could be described as child like or blind if that is a better description.

    I do not disagree with you that we should abstain from something based on someone who is self-righteous or fixed in judgment regardless of what we do. I do feel scripture bears out that we need to watch and pray and take each situation and treat it differently based on the circumstances.

    Sorry if it seemed like I was trying to say that the verse that tells us to abstain from evil implies that we would be a stumbling block. I do not think that at all. I just think it is a good foundational Bible truth that goes hand in hand one with another.

    I think we do agree on many things,even if I have not done a great job of expressing that in a way that is more understandable. You have respectfully shared your views and I do not mind having a healthy conversation in matters such as these with some one who does it the manner in which you have here.

    May God Bless you.
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Very good description.

    WHen I was a teen it was almost a common joke:

    Boy - want to dance?
    Girl - No, I'm a Baptist, I can't go to a dance. Want to make out?

    This 'baptist' doctrine is based on a misunderstanding
    of one verse which I've written about beforehand:

    ----------------------------
    1 Thessalonians 5:22 (HCSB = Christian Standard
    Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):

    Stay away from every form of evil.

    1 Thessalonians 5:22 (KJV1769 with Strong's #):

    1Th 5:22 Abstain567 from575 all3956
    appearance1491 of evil.4190

    G1491
    εἶδος
    eidos
    i'-dos
    From G1492; a view, that is, form (literally
    or figuratively): - appearance, fashion, shape, sight.

    note, not "looks like" nor "looks like to somebody"



     
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