Traducianism or Creationism

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by stilllearning, Jul 2, 2011.

  1. stilllearning

    stilllearning
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    While thinking about God’s Sovereignty, in the area of Election, this question came to mind.

    Since God is in “Compete control” of the universe, He “could” arrange for those souls who “will” someday be born again, to be born into bodies in places where the Gospel is more available.

    But then again, people get saved, all over the world in every possible set of circumstances; Therefore the time and place of a person’s birth, might not be an issue at all.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Anyway, Ecclesiastes 12:7 seems to support Traducianism..........
    “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”


    What do you think?
     
  2. Dr. Bob

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    Out here in Mormon Country we fight the theory of pre-existence more than creation. That is a cardinal LDS teaching . . and when all the souls are "used up", the end will come. Hence the multiple wives/large families.

    I believe the human race was created in Adam, and God breathed into that created being the "breath of lives". Since then, akin to the animal and vegetable life, natural generation is the method of propagation. (Classic Augustinian/Tertullian position of the early church)

    God created Adam (Gen 1:27), then increasing/perpetuating that initial creation through secondary agencies. God is no more "working/creating", since He rested from that work. (Gen 2:2)

    This by no means eliminates a sovereign God and an "element" of truth in creationism - there is a Divine interaction/concurrence of propagating the human race. He guides and superintends (ie, controls) procreation, and His election plays a role that we, of course, are not privy to.
     
  3. stilllearning

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    Isn’t it interesting, how “many-faceted” Satan’s lies are, when people turn away from the Gospel of Christ!

    A lie for every occasion!
     
  4. Dr. Bob

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    Found that most wrong conduct is supported by wrong doctrine.

    Wonder which came first - the vile conduct that led them to false doctrine to support it, or the false doctrine that led to such a wrong view of life that they went into worldly/carnal practice?
     
  5. freeatlast

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    As I understand it the English word we call "soul" came about around the 8th century so how are you using the word "Soul"? What is it exactly as you understand it? Are you using it as a synonym for "spirit"? Are they the same? And in the passage ECC 12:7 what is your take on "and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

    What is returning as this would seem to suggest that even the spirit of the lost returns.
     
    #5 freeatlast, Jul 3, 2011
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  6. stilllearning

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    Hello freeatlast

    You asked........
    The way I understand the trichotomy of man, is body soul and Spirit.
    When we were born, our “Spirit” was Adam’s spirit, but when we were born again, Adam’s Spirit is killed and replaced by God’s Holy Spirit.

    Now in this explanation, our soul is “us”(who we are), that part of us that lives forever(in heaven or hell).

    Just as God is a trichotomy: The Father is God’s Soul: The Son is God’s Body; and the Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit(the same Spirit that is in every Born again Christian).
    So are we, made in God's image in that way!
    --------------------------------------------------
    You also asked.......
    What this verse “seems” to be saying, is that the eternal part of “us”(our soul), returns to God.
    So yes, even the unsaved are “returned” to God; So that He can put them in the right place.

    Eternity(which ever it is), belongs to God, so every soul will be dealt with accordingly!
     
  7. stilllearning

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    Hello again freeatlast

    I just remembered, I forgot to supply any Scripture, to support my conclusions.......

    The trichotomy of man.......
    1 Thessalonians 5:23
    “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”


    God’s Spirit and Soul........
    Matthew 12:18
    “Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.”


    Job’s spirit and soul........
    Job 7:11
    “Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.”


    Mary’s Spirit and Soul........
    Luke 1:46-47
    V.46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
    V.47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.


    Paul’s Spirit and Soul........
    2 Corinthians 1:22-23
    V.22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
    V.23 Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.


    The separation of Adam’s spirit from our soul........
    Hebrews 4:12
    “For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
     
  8. HankD

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    Body - Physical, material world awareness

    Soul - Self awareness

    Spirit - God awareness

    "and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

    All, everything, everyone is the Lord's even the wicked to do with as He please.

    Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.​

    Even the wicked return to Him for judgment.​

    Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

    HankD​
     
  9. freeatlast

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    Guys those are interesting answers. :)
     
  10. stilllearning

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    Hi Bob

    You said that you are fighting the pre-existence theory, because it’s a cardinal LDS teaching:
    But just because Mormons add & twist this idea around, doesn’t make it false.
    (There are lots of “sound” Biblical ideas, that false religion twists to there own destruction!)

    You also stated that you believed that God’s creative work was finished:
    Well, if this theory is called “pre-existence”: Would not that also be saying that God’s creative work was finished?
     

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