Transgressing the Law

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Sep 3, 2008.

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  1. steaver

    steaver
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    You say "so" as if it is not true. What don't you believe about the passage?

    Rom 2:14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

    Is this what the verse says? No. It does not say "even if you are committing murder you are alright".

    (btw, this is the proper way to confront a theology you suspect as in error, by asking as you did a question rather than falsely declaring "you are teaching this or that :thumbs: , Thank you!)

    God states here that there is a conscience within a man. The conscience would be something God has placed there when He created man to guide him into the righteousness of His law, even though not yet revealed to him oraly or on paper so to speak. Those who are persistent in rejecting their conscience and do evil continuiously may have it seared to a point where God turns them over, like turns their conscience off so to speak, to their own eternal damnation.

    1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    Jhn 8:9 And they which heard [it], being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

    If you have a member of your congregation say that they have murdered and it has not convicted them it is wrong, then that does not make God's word void. It shows the member is lying, suppressing his conscience, or is beyond the point of having their conscience seared. It does not make God's word concerning the conscience false.
     
  2. steaver

    steaver
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    The conscience is spoken about quite a bit in the NT. It is a good topic to study!

    :godisgood:
     
  3. Brother Bob

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    If you want a debate without so much contention, lay off the remarks. You continue with the remarks the first post in this thread. Take a look in the mirror, then apologize for starting a thread with a sly remark.
    Now, how many salvation systems are there in the NT? Do you have one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles? Don't you accept the fact it is no longer Jew or Gentile, but Children of God?


    Now, how does your conscious theology fit with the following scripture, how do you excuse the word of God.

    Rom 8:1¶[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    If there is no condemnation, then the conscious may be there but the children of God are not doing anything to be condemned.

    Now if you are going to teach the Law, I suggest you study it first. For many attempt to teach the Law and don't understand it themselves.

    1 Tim 1:
    4: Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
    5: Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
    6: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
    7: Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
    8: But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
    9: Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
    10: For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

    What is it saying? It is saying that we are free from the Law through the blood and body of Christ.

    Why? Because God said to the believer, I will put my laws in their hearts and write them in their minds.

    What does that mean? It means that the righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in us.

    Why? Because we don't do the things contained in the Law. The righteous could not be fulfilled in us, if we are breakers of the Law.

    Romans 8:



    1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


    Is this saying the Law is done away with, NO! It is saying where the Law is.

    Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

    Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    If you want to debate me, don't start off by talking "down" to me. I am a person who highly resents someone putting themselves above me, or anyone else. This is a level playing field. I do not put myself above anyone, but will fiercly defend my position, when attacked. Someone said to turn the other cheek, well when it comes to the word of God, there is no "backing" up. If you are ashame to confess me, I will be ashame to confess you.

    So Sir, this is a good place to start with a clean slate, or we can continue as we have been. The ball is in your corner, I am giving you a chance to withdraw your remarks and debate cleanly.

    I will be logging off, until I see how you respond.

    I will say this for you. You have posted the best response to me about sin, than anyone because you use the scripture that sin is transgression of the Law, which would put ALL sin, under the Law. The only thing is, Paul in my opinion was speaking of sin that brings separation from God and John said "all unrighteous is sin" which I take the breaking of the Law, John goes on and says AND there is a sin not unto death. He is plainly speaking of 2 different kind of sins. Scripture also plainly says, there is a sin unto death, and there is a sin not unto death, which plainly is speaking of two different kind of sins. Also, Jesus said, "he that hath delivered me unto you hath the greater sin", which plainly says, there is a difference in sin.

    I have given you examples of scripture that speaks of at least two different kinds of sin. Maybe you could you give me scripture where a "bad thought" is equal to the same sin as "rape"?

    One other thing, When God said I will put my laws in their hearts and minds, He was talking about all the saved, not just the Jews, for we were "grafted" into the same system of salvation as they.



    BBob,
     
    #3 Brother Bob, Sep 3, 2008
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  4. steaver

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    With all due respect, my statement is a matter of fact that has been prevalent in many post you made about my views and some others on here as well. I did not mean it to "talk down" to you but rather to reprove what has been going on.

    I am sure I have offended you in the past with some of my post as well, maybe spoken out of frustration. I will and do appologiize for anytime that I have. I know you mean well by hating sin, I hate sin as well, I just see it as sad to take it to the extreme you do. It even is harmful to the body of Christ to take it as far as you do.

    I do not withdraw my remark, but it will be the last time you see it in my post as long as I do not see any misrepresentation of me in yours.

    Here is the problem with us here BBob, You have misrepresented my views and some others here as well, even AFTER we repeatedly clarified our positions over and over. But you deny that you have, so I do not see us moving forward with a clean slate unless you recognize you have and appologize for the misrepresentations, working at abstaining from them in the future. Nobodys perfect.

    Ball is over to your court! Remember brother, I still love you! But I have this point of contention with you.

    :jesus: :praying:
     
  5. Brother Bob

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    I do not think I have misrepresentedyou. I have stated what you have posted. If you made a post you do not uphold, it is you who should withdraw and admit to the post.

    You and others have continued to say that I have misrepresented you and then when I show the post, you will not accept the responsbility.

    This is the 4 post here and its been all about how you feel about me being dishonest. I am not dishonest and will not apologize for something I have not done.

    BTW; there is the Law of the Commandments and there is God's Law. There is a law to the inward man, and there is a law to the outward man. There was sin before the 10 and the Gentiles have not the Law, as did the Jews.
    Their conscious is their Law, but Paul had a conscious also, even before the Law entered.

    Anything that goes against the will of God is sin, whether its the 10 or not.

    Also, once again you are accusing me of lying. I am sick to the bone of your false accusations.

    God Bless,

    BBob,
     
    #5 Brother Bob, Sep 3, 2008
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  6. bound

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    Grace and Peace,

    This thread seems to be similar to the thread about Sabbath Observance. Both seem to be fixated in the Old Covenant and confusion about the New and about exactly what Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ did for us on Calvary.

    Only when we are firmly established in Christ and the New Covenant can the Old Covenant be done away with. Without light we cling to shadows...

    There is a great deal of need among all of us to recognize the fulfillment of the Old Law not only in Christ but in Love (Agape). Remember what St. Paul spoke with regards to our duty to others... owe nothing to man but to love... for love fulfills the Law and the Prophets. This is not the casting aside the Law but transcending and fulfilling the Law in Christ through Christ as a new creature in a new creation.
     
  7. steaver

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    Are you suggesting that the commandment to love God can be broken "not unto death", as you have defined "unto death", since it is not one of the "big ten"?

    Deu 6:5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

    Deu 11:1¶Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.
     
  8. Brother Bob

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    Luke 1:
    5: There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
    6: And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

    I wonder if Zacharias or Elisabeth, ever sinned? It seems they kept all the commandments and were blameless, so they must of Loved God.

    What about Abraham?

    Gen 26:5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    I wonder if they sinned ever, while still loving God? Or, did they not Love God?



    BBob,
     
    #8 Brother Bob, Sep 5, 2008
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  9. DHK

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    6: And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

    Does ALL mean ALL? Does that mean that they were sinless. Doesn't the Bible teach that the only person that was sinless is Christ?
    The verse then, must have another meaning. For the Scripture clearly states:

    Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Does not ALL here mean ALL.
    Is there a contradiction?
     
  10. Brother Bob

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    You want all to mean all in Romans, but yet find another meaning in Gen.

    So, you have an answer for "all", I don't agree but you think you have the answer.
    You have another word to overcome "blameless".

    What is your answer for blameless, in keeping the Commandments, statues and laws.

    Also, why does there seem to be a difference between Commandments, and "Law" in Gen?

    Is it possible to "Love God" yet commit some kind of sin?

    BBob,
     
  11. steaver

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    Very interesting question.

    Jesus said,

    Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    If one breaks a commandment, can it be said they love God?

    Romans states "all have sinned".

    What is your answer?
     
  12. Brother Bob

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    You said Peter was a hypocrite, did Peter Love Him??

    BBob,
     
  13. steaver

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    Good question. At the point Peter transgressed the law and was hypocritical, did he show that he did not love Jesus at that moment in time?
     
  14. Brother Bob

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    I am asking you Steaver. Don't come back with a question, give some answers.

    Did Abraham really keep all of God's commandments, statues and Laws, or is this a case where "all" is not "all"?

    If He did keep all of God's Commandments and Laws, did he sin, as scripture says "all have sinned"?

    We seems to want everything in "black in white" until it upset our theology, then as DHK said, "it must mean something different".

    Are we really in a position to be so absolute on everything or is there some variance in certain cases?

    I mean, Jesus said to Peter, "doth thou love me" and Peter said "Lord, you know I love you". Jesus did not speak up and say, "no you don't".
    BBob,
     
  15. DHK

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    Are there any commandment that Jesus gave us that are impossible to keep.
    Remember that it was impossible for the Jews to keep the law.
    The law was their to show them their exceeding sinfulness, and thus pointed them to Christ. It is impossible to keep the law.

    But what about in the NT? Take a close look at these two commands:

    Matthew 22:36-38 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
    37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
    Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    Is it possible to keep these two commands? No, I don't believe so.
    Do you (not you personally, but all) love God with all your heart? That means all your heart, all the time, every day of your life, every minute of ever day. In essence it would mean that you never sin. The moment you would sin you would be taking your heart off of loving God, and would not be loving God with all of your heart. Are there any affections that ever at any time come between you and God: your children, wife; perhaps material things like a computer, or sports, fame or popularity, reputation, etc. There are many things that come between us and God, and many times. Most of them are come down to areas of "self" and "pride." We cannot honestly say that we love God with "All of our hearts," because we don't.

    Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
    --Mark adds the word "strength." Do you give 100% of your bodily strength to the Lord 100% of the time (except perhaps for 7-8 hours of sleep)? Is all the rest of the time given to the Lord in ALL your strength? "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with ALL thy might." Most of the time we don't put "all of our might" in those things that we set out to do. Some may; most don't. "Give it your all" is an expression oft heard, but seldom followed.

    "With all your soul and mind" Do you serve God with all the intellectual capacity that you have? Seeing that Einstein is said to have used only 10% of his brain, the answer to that one, is "not likely."
    Do we follow Phil. 4:8 to think on only those things that are pure and right, etc.
    Do we follow 2Cor.10:3-5 and bring every thought into obedience and captivity to the Lord Jesus Christ?
    Is every single thought of my Christian life brought under subjection to Jesus Christ? It is unlikely.
    "Therefore with the mind I serve the law of God..." Do I?
    All the time? Or, do I give into the flesh sometimes. The rest of the verse says:
    "But with the flesh I serve the law of sin."

    Is it really possible to keep this command? Or is it more like a goal to strive toward.
    The second ls like unto it.
     
  16. Brother Bob

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    It was not impossible for the Jews to keep the Law, they through the weakness of their flesh, did not keep the Law. There was a remnant that did keep the Law.

    DHK; you are different than anyone I ever knew. You quote scripture that was given for us to keep, then you say it is impossible to keep.

    You say it was impossible to keep the Commandments, but God says Abraham did keep them. How can you so easily deny the word of God.

    Who hath known the mind of God, who hath been His councelor? How do you know when God consider that someone is "blameless", in His eyes, not yours. How do you know, when God consider that someone has kept His commandments, like King David which God said He did, but what we know, it seems he didn't, but let God be true and every man a liar.

    You question the word, when I take God at His word. I might not understand, but still take God at His word.

    1Jo 2:4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    Again, using the above scripture. "who hath known the mind of God and who hath been His counselor?

    Man, there are sometimes we must in all honesty towards God, say "I do not know".

    Romans 13:

    8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    BBob,
     
    #16 Brother Bob, Sep 5, 2008
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  17. DHK

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    I don't question the Word; I study it and then see how it harmonizes. OTOH, there are certain parts of the Word that you refuse to study with an open mind, and possibly are afraid to look at from the original language.

    Take a look at the above verse. What does "keep not his commandments" mean?
    I would be willing to gamble (but only if I were a gambling man :) ) that the verb here is in the present continuous, as are most of the other verbs that John has been using in similar verses. In other words the verse means:

    ...and keeps on not keeping his commandments... or,
    ...and habitually does not keep his commandments...

    It has that sense. It in no way demands sinless perfection, as in does not keep one of his commandments. The verse just does not teach that. Again, like 1John 3:8,9 it is speaking of a habitual lifestyle. The epistle of First John was written to Christians to give them evidences or assurances of their own personal salvation. It does not answer the question "How do I know that "that man is saved." No! It answers the question "How do I know that I am saved. We are to focus on ourselves and not others. One of the evidences of my salvation (how I know that I am saved) is if I keep His commandments. There is a change in a person's life when they are saved. John is pointing out that change. He is not pointing out sinless perfection.
     
  18. Amy.G

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    Abraham sinned. He lied to Pharoah.


    Gen 12:11 And it came to pass, when he was close to entering Egypt, that he said to Sarai his wife, "Indeed I know that you are a woman of beautiful countenance.
    Gen 12:12 "Therefore it will happen, when the Egyptians see you, that they will say, 'This is his wife'; and they will kill me, but they will let you live.
    Gen 12:13 "Please say you are my sister, that it may be well with me for your sake, and that I may live because of you."
    Gen 12:14 So it was, when Abram came into Egypt, that the Egyptians saw the woman, that she was very beautiful.
    Gen 12:15 The princes of Pharaoh also saw her and commended her to Pharaoh. And the woman was taken to Pharaoh's house.
    Gen 12:16 He treated Abram well for her sake. He had sheep, oxen, male donkeys, male and female servants, female donkeys, and camels.
    Gen 12:17 But the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai, Abram's wife.
    Gen 12:18 And Pharaoh called Abram and said, "What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife?
    Gen 12:19 "Why did you say, 'She is my sister'? I might have taken her as my wife. Now therefore, here is your wife; take her and go your way."

    The Bible says that Abraham was declared righteous because he "believed" God, not because he never sinned.
     
  19. Brother Bob

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    Love either is or it is not. I don't think you can turn love on and off. We might get a little puffed at our wives, but it does not take away our love for them.

    Our children certainly try our patience, but we continue to love them. IMO

    BBob,
     
  20. Brother Bob

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    Yet God said:

    Gen 26:5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    How can this be?

    BBob,
     
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