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Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Aaron, Feb 21, 2014.

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  1. Aaron

    Aaron
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    Continuation of:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2088486&postcount=1

    Are you sure she isn't responding more to Purpose Driven stuff?

    There is a book called Transitions which is basically a stealth strategy to move a church into the Purpose Driven mode. That is the trend I've seen in recent years.
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    The article was shaky at best right from the start....to many unanswered questions-

    The writer ignored this verse right from the start;
    19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

    So it could be this woman talebearing.

    Let's say...she was not talebearing...and this "pastor" somehow was acting as a secret 5th column...as the article said..."infiltrating" the poor hapless non cals....catching them by surprise:laugh:
    That would be pathetic...however it is quite doubtful this is what went on.

    The idea was also offered a couple of times...that perhaps a non cal might try and sneak into a Calvinist church and take over.This idea is laughable in that within ten minutes of conversation the theological confusion would be exposed and correction would be offered.

    What most likely took place and takes place many times over is a pastor who never really studied these things...begins to try and teach against it.

    He starts to study then he finds passages that he cannot really answer.His continued study changes his view to where piece by piece he starts to grasp a more sound biblical theology. His teaching starts to swing over, but like most..he resists labels thinking this is more spiritual.

    His teaching becomes more biblical and God's grace unfolds to this man.His teaching and preaching reflects his views more and more.

    The thing is.....many begin to enjoy the "new teaching " and the direction of the church and desire to grow in grace and knowledge...

    Some fossilized professing members see an article against Cals.... they really do not understand it at all...but because it requires real study and pray, and effort, they resist truth,and read this one article{probably by roger olson}...saying they liked their church just fine the way they always felt it should be, and they do not want to be confused by actual bible teaching or cathechisms, confessions etc{works of men}

    They remain ignorant as Archangel spoke of...mostly because of sloth:thumbs:

    The others like in the article...like the new teaching and are hungry to learn more and serve....but the goats and those who resist speak about the "evil" new calvinism taking over... rather than looking in the mirror and coming to grips with the fact that the pastor was giving out little shallow sermonettes rather than preaching through the word:wavey:
     
  3. Aaron

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    This sounds like the more likely scenario.
     
  4. Iconoclast

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    At the bottom of the original article there was a comment section...a few men said that is exactly what happened to them ,and some were still in the midst of the situation....

    Here is one from the comment section;
     
    #4 Iconoclast, Feb 23, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2014
  5. Iconoclast

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    Another factor is that many are swept into churches with little or no doctrinal backround. They get entertainment rather than doctrine.many have no clue what is at issue.They do not know the bible so much.

    Some here on BB have complained about using man made terms and labels.If a pastor just teaches about God's grace just offering the verses....he will get attacked by those who say.....he is offering reformed teaching without telling the people.

    if he uses the Theological terms, he will get attacked for teaching.."man made doctrine",lol. Either way those who oppose grace find a reason or excuse to attack it.
     
  6. Winman

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    What a load of manure, Calvinists attempting to rationalize the insidious, dishonest behavior of a fellow Calvinist who lied to infiltrate a non-Calvinist church and attempt to convert it to Calvinism. Despicable.

    We are not given many facts in this letter, but we are told that this pastor denied being a Calvinist, so obviously the question was brought up. This shows that the congregation did not want Calvinism.

    Everyone in the body of Christ has certain gifts, and this lady seems to have the gift of discernment. She noticed this pastor introducing Reformed material and speakers into her church before others. There is nothing unusual about this at all. The fact that others did not seem to notice does not mean they approve of these changes, they may not be aware yet.

    But to excuse this dishonest "pastor" because the congregation may not be aware of what he is doing is like excusing Bernie Madoff because his victims were unaware that he was stealing their life savings.

    Anyone who sneaks into a church and tries to subvert the traditional belief of that church is a snake, plain and simple.
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    Winman

    ,

    Where? You did not post yet:laugh::laugh:

    You were not there.You do not even know this alleged pastors name.If he said he was not a calvinist, who are you to be judge jury and executioner.

    IF this person exists...God is His judge , not you.
    God alone brings biblical reformation to a church.

    That does not stop you from talebearing as if you know exactly what happened ,when you are clueless once again.

    Maybe is does not believe himself to be one.Most who study themselves into the position are not sure where they are theologically.In fact many here on BB...secretly hold to most of the same truths as the Cal holds:wavey:
    Let's say this is an accurate story for one minute...one person asks ...are you a Cal...he says ...no....So what. Any Cal I know would clearly say what they would believe.

    They might first ask to clarify ....WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY A CALVINIST.

    they might ask this to draw out all the strawmen and caricatures of the position first...you know...like the ones you post everyday.

    Most non cals do not understand the teaching well enough or they would embrace it.....we know this because they cannot re-state it correctly....

    I am not presbyterian but i could go in front of a presbyterian assembly and teach what they believe on covenant continuity, then show why i do not hold it . Non cals here have not shown they can do this...THEY ALWAYS RESIST AT SOME POINT.

    You confuse scriptural disobedience with discernment;

    19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

    The whole church was enjoying the fine study materials...this woman was out of the loop...she did not get it...I am sure you know how that is:laugh:

    .

    many a church is a church in name only...biblical reformation comes and sweeps out the dead wood.
     
  8. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Doubly so, since they've now done it three times in six posts. If it weren't sad and dishonest in itself, it would be laughable.
    A point that mysteriously escapes them completely.
    Yet another "evasive" point. Wonder where it is hiding on their screens that they can't see it?
    And should be dismissed for dishonesty and misrepresentation. :thumbsup:
     
  9. preacher4truth

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    I question the verity of her 'story' as something about it doesn't ring true.

    Secondly she needs to take this before the church, not as a busybody on a site and to a site in which she knows she will get her ears tickled i.e. 'I’m looking for help or support from like minded individuals'. I think it's more like looking for opportunity to gossip and backbite with others who do the same toward other brothers. And she fond the right place for it. THAT is what she gets from that site obviously. I don't see much love, wisdom, nor the grace of Christ in airing this stuff out publicly, and there is another unspoken side to this story.

    She also stated this: 'I don’t even know what my question is for you, or what kind of advice I need.'

    Which being interpreted meaneth; 'I've got some juicy gossip and want to condemn a pastor and those wicked Calvinists'! She's not seeking an answer to a question in the first place, she's seeking comfort and encouragement in her slander of another. Gossips run to those with their stories who are like them, they don't want answers, they want to run someone down. This was the point and objective of said thread as well.

    Here is the advice she needs: Quit gossiping, obey Scripture and bring it to your pastor and so on. Why is it so hard to just obey Christ instead of sowing discord? Frankly shes the one in covert operation.

    The 'counsel' she got from the site was opinion, gossip, stories, continuation of schism, division, sowing discord, and encouraging further division. I see this as a common trait of anti-cals and she found a group of 'like minded' persons to do this with.

    Birds of feather flock together.
     
  10. Aaron

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    That might not be a fact either. Assuming the writer is being truthful, it's probably just her opinion of what happened, and probably didn't understand his explanation when asked to clarify, if he was asked at all.

    There are some on this board who espouse the Doctrines of Grace and deny being Calvinist. I'm not one of them.

    Calvinism is the Gospel. Anything else is not.
     
  11. Winman

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    If the fellow was asked if he were a Calvinist, and denied it, and then was hired, then obviously the congregation did not want a Calvinist pastor.

    Knowing this, this person was dishonest to introduce "Reformed" materials and doctrines. If a "Calvinist" pastor was not welcome, then neither would a "Reformed" pastor. In GENERAL terms they are the same to most people.

    Just as this Reformed pastor was dishonest, Reformed and Calvinist posters here are being dishonest as well. They know what this fellow did was completely dishonest and there is no justification for it. Because these persons might not be as knowledgeable as they should be does not give this person a right to take advantage of them.
     
  12. Winman

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    But you did, and it was a load of manure.

    No excuse, if they didn't want a Calvinist pastor, they would not want a Reformed pastor either.

    So, you think this lady is a liar? You are truly the accuser of the brethren.

    You should tell this to your Reformed and Calvinist pastors who go out and try to sneak into non-Calvinist churches.

    I am only going by what was revealed in the letter. I have no reason to doubt it.

    Lame excuse and you know it. This person should have explained that he was not a Calvinist, but a "Reformed" pastor. He surely understood why they asked him if he was a Calvinist or not.


    Exactly, but the impression I get from the letter is that this person simply denied being a Calvinist and left it at that. He SHOULD have explained that he was Reformed.

    They probably assumed they were speaking to an honest person. Big mistake on their part.

    They were probably good Christian folks who trusted this young man. Christians can tend to be naive at times, that does not give this person a right to take advantage of them.

    No, they probably spend their time studying the Bible and this is why they are not Calvinists.

    Irrelevant. These persons do not have to be experts at Calvinism to reject it. When they asked if he were a Calvinist and they were willing to hire him, he should have known they did not want a Calvinist or Reformed pastor. He should have bowed out at that point.

    The average Baptist may not be a scholar, but they know that they believe any person can respond to the gospel, they know they believe in unlimited atonement, and they do not believe in irresistible grace.

    This lady was simply asking advice before starting trouble in her church.

    You don't have a clue what others believed. This lady is sharp, she realized right away that Reformed materials and speakers were being introduced, perhaps others did not catch on yet. That does not mean they enjoyed or approve of Reformed doctrine. The fact they asked whether the pastor was a Calvinist shows they did not want Calvinism or the DoGs in their church.

    .
    That does not give Cals/Ref/DoGs the right to sneak into churches.

    If your doctrine was so glorious, then you would think a person would be upfront and vocal about their beliefs. The very fact that they must sneak into churches reveals it is a doctrine of devils.
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    preacher4truth

    Yes....even if someone says ...okay..let's make as if she is accurate and the story is what it is.....I would be more impressed if the writer of this article, contacted this "pastor"...and asked him for his side of it.If I knew the church or the pastor, i would call him myself and have him give his side of the story...maybe this woman is accurate, maybe she is clueless, maybe she is a goat, who rejected sheep food.

    Yes....exactly:thumbs:


    She could have signed up on BB...and had many sympathetic ears,lol...team anti-cal jihad would have helped her never come to truth.

    translation...i am clueless,but I heard that cals......

    yes....your take is better,lol...it must be wicked calvinists, studying the bible again....they always offer those verses and post links to "reformed " teachings...they are so troubling:thumbsup:





     
  14. Winman

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    There is always the chance the story is false. That is irrelevant, we are simply discussing the story as if it were true. If it is true, then this new pastor is a snake, he clearly did not reveal his Cal/Ref/DoGs beliefs and accepted a job at a church that did not want Calvinism taught.

    Why would you speak to a person who has shown they lie?

    This lady has a perfect right to be anti- Cal/Ref/DoG.

    No, she was simply being honest as not knowing exactly how to handle this situation.

    Calvinists do study the Bible, but not to know truth. They study the Bible searching for scripture they can pull out of context and isolate that seems to support Calvinism. Scripture that refutes Calvinism is either ignored or wrested beyond all recognition until it seems to support this false doctrine.
     
  15. InTheLight

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    I posted my experience with the stealth Calvinist pastoral candidate. I was there. I witnessed it. Let's see you call me a talebearer (that's Reformed speak for LIAR. )


    So not only can you tell when non-Cals are lying you are also a mind reader. That's quite a gift you've got there.


    Both sides are guilty of this.
     
  16. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    This would be a totally laughable, truly uproariously inane comment if not for the fact that you actually believe that to be the case, and so do so many others on this board. Here's my reaction. Refute it if you can.
    • The Calvinist gospel does not say that God loved the whole world, but finds it necessary to define "world" and "all" irrationally, and therefore it is a false gospel.
    • The Calvinist gospel does not say that God gave his only begotten son for the sins of the whole world as John 1:29 says, and therefore is a false Gospel
    • The Calvinist gospel denies that "whosoever believes will receive salvation" means that any can so believe and receive, therefore it is a false Gospel.
    • The Calvinist gospel which comes to you in the form of the Doctrines of Grace is instead a gospel totally lacking in grace, restricting as it does the gospel to a non-existent group of individually elected persons whom God favors above others whom He created, thus turning the Good News of Christ into a "bad news gospel" that offers them absolutely no hope. This does not deny the Doctrines of Grace, but the Calvinist interpretation of the doctrines.
    This last crime against the condemned encourages many not to seek Christ because they "are not worthy" of Him, i.e., they do not feel worthy, and therefore are likely "not among the elect," a damnable lie that sends men and women to hell. The elect are any who will believe, and what they are "elect" to is being conformed to the image of Christ by virtue of their faith.
     
    #16 thisnumbersdisconnected, Feb 23, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2014
  17. Aaron

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    Of course I can answer them.
    This is a conclusion, not an argument. Nothing to answer that hasn't been debated ad nauseum. Usage determines parts of speech and the definitions of words. There are places in the Scriptures where you would have to concede that "all doesn't mean all" in the sense you are forcing upon it in other places.
    I don't see the word "whole" there. The Law teaches that the high priest on the Day of Atonement wore a breastplate with 12 stones representing the families of the Elect. Where was the stone for Egypt?

    I'm assuming you understand the symbolism the Tabernacle, Priesthood and the Offerings. If you don't, it's no wonder you aren't a Calvinist.

    Yes, we deny that a man can save himself.
    Again, this is a conclusion, not an argument. Nothing here to answer.

    I usually don't get into the cal/arm debates. They're fruitless—usually. But if one of Christ's sheep looking on finds an answer to a perplexing cavil of certain noncalvinists, then I'm your huckleberry. :type:
     
  18. Iconoclast

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    InTheLight

    Could you post that link again...I will look again...could you also post the pastors name...so I can contact him and question his "stealth strategy.

    Yes ..ITL...it is like a sixth sense...for example...let's look at you.You claim this horrible thing happened to you...and yet when you post...you do not show any clear or edifying posts ..on most topics.

    In other words...you jump in...with a drive by post...on the attack...one or two sentences then you vanish when anyone answers you...

    Any such behaviour needs to change if it is not following a scriptural pattern.the pattern I see from you...and let's say...our friend X is to lie in wait to jump in and attack cals.....without any cause ,except you felt left out of the church coming to biblical truth...it did not agree with you:wavey:

    ITL...could you link 3 posts from this past month, that you feel are scripturally helpful on any topic??? I might have just missed them.
     
    #18 Iconoclast, Feb 25, 2014
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  19. Iconoclast

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    This shows you have never heard Calvinists preach or teach.:wavey:
     
  20. Iconoclast

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    Winman

    Hello Threadkiller....


    Is that what I said...or this?
    Yes....even if someone says ...okay..let's make as if she is accurate and the story is what it is.....I would be more impressed if the writer of this article, contacted this "pastor"...and asked him for his side of it.If I knew the church or the pastor, i would call him myself and have him give his side of the story...maybe this woman is accurate, maybe she is clueless, maybe she is a goat, who rejected sheep food.

    Cmon TK....be accurate
    .
    Doctrine of devils.....looks like you are the accuser my friend....Thread Killer strikes again:thumbs:
     
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