Translating The KJV

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Rippon, Aug 31, 2009.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    Yesterday in adult Sunday School our Assistant Pastor was teaching. He always uses a KJV.

    He was doing an overview of Colosians 2:8-23. (I realize that's quite a hunk of Scripture to bite into.)

    As he was quoting the KJV he had to explain in modern speech what KJV-speak meant.

    In verse 8 he said "rudiments of the world' actually means "elemental spiritual forces".

    In verse 13 he said "quickened" means "made alive" (as just about everyone here knows).

    In verse 14 he said that "the handwriting of ordinances that was against us" means "our state of indebtedness."

    In verse 18 he told us that "beguile you of your reward" actually means "disqualify you."

    In verse 23 he related that "satisfying of the flesh" really means "sensual indulgence."

    He made the remark which I took down immediately:"The KJV translators in their effort to be very literal sometimes came up with nearly incomprehensible phrases."

    I still don't know why the KJV is used in our services which are primarily attended by Koreans who use the NIV Explanation Bible. Tradtion dies hard. Perhaps missionary support would dry up if we even went with the NKJV.

    Here is verse 23 in the KJV first.

    Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

    Here it is in the TNIV:

    Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

    Yes, nearly all of his rewordings matched the phraselogy of the TNIV. Why go through the extra hoops when a more understandable translation is at-hand?
     
  2. Deacon

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    Why he has to fill the class time up with something!

    If he didn't fill the time up by translating the KJV, he might have to jump right to personal application

    ...and nobody likes that part. :D

    Rob
     
  3. Tater77

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    This might sound condescending but I dont mean it that way.

    My Sunday School class uses about 4 translations and we get straight into theology, doctrine and application even though the teacher uses the KJV.

    In one class we have the KJV, NASB, NIV and NLT.
     
  4. robycop3

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    "Variety of thranslations is profitable for the understanding of the sense of the Scriptures."
     
  5. HankD

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    Yes even the NKJV has:

    NKJV Colossians 2:23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.​

    The 17th century Elizabethan sytle language of the AV was, and still is, a monument to the beauty and magnificence of the English language at its best. I for one hope the AV is cherished and preserved throughout the earth-age. ​

    We (English speakers) are however a 21st century society and much of the KJV language no longer speaks to the 21st century common man apart from those cloistered within the walls of our local churches.​

    No! (to the the false accusers), I do not hate the KJV but love it as the translated Word of God and see the providence of God as to the impact that it has had upon the history of the English speaking world.​

    But as translations go, I could say the same for the Tyndale, Geneva, old-Itala, Peshitto and yes, even the Latin Vulgate (and their respective cultures), all of which are derivative witnesses to the original manuscripts and their preservation.​

    HankD​
     
    #5 HankD, Aug 31, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2009
  6. preachinjesus

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    Something about old habits and dying hard should be said here...;)

    Actually you've got a terrific point. This is why I made the switch at a young age (well one of the reasons.) I kept finding better, more suitable words in more recent translations. Our job in teaching is to take the sacred text and illuminate it for the lives of our hearers through exegesis led by the Holy Spirit. If you're having to constantly say "well the text says this but it means this" and such you might want to consider switching translations. :)
     
  7. Deacon

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    I rarely use the KJV but used it yesterday morning to illustrate a point.
    We were studying Psalm 32 and looking at the common Hebrew word, חֶטְאָה (hĕtah), often translated as “sin” but translated in some places as “to miss the mark” (e.g. Judges 20:16; Proverbs 19:2; Proverbs 8:26)


    In the class the only versions we had were the NIV, NRSV, a JPS Tenach, NKJV and a KJV (no, the Tenach wasn’t mine :tongue3:).

    I asked them to look at Proverbs 8:26.

    But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
    all who hate me love death.
    Proverbs 8:36 NIV

    but those who miss me injure themselves;
    all who hate me love death.
    Proverbs 8:36 NRSV

    But he that misseth me wrongeth his own soul; all they that hate me love death.
    JPS 1917

    Finally we looked at the KJV and found the word in question translated “sin”.

    But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul:
    All they that hate me love death.
    Proverbs 8:36 AV 1873

    They got the point; “sin” is like “missing the mark”.

    We used the KJV to "translate" what the others were saying. :D

    Rob
     
  8. EdSutton

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    Translating the KJV???

    'Bout 400 years late, I'd say. :BangHead:

    Ed
     
  9. Rippon

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    Okay, the TNIV will decide this (just kidding).

    Look at both verse 35 and 36 for the context.

    For those who find me find life
    and receive favor from the Lord.
    But those who fail to find me harm themselves;
    all who hate me love death.

    "Those who find me" is related to "those who fail to find me." Mystery solved.
     
  10. Harold Garvey

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    What more could i add to this!:laugh:
     
  11. HankD

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    KJV 1 John 3:4 ... sin is the transgression of the law.

     
  12. Rippon

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    Hey, H.G. What do you think:"As time passes and English changes, the KJV we have at present is becoming increasingly dated. If we want a Bible that English speakers around the world can understand, we have to listen to, and respect, the vocabularly they are using today."
     
  13. Rippon

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    Colossians 3:5

    The same teacher dealt with this passage which goes like this in the KJV:

    Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

    "Mortify. In the modern vernacular:put to death."

    "Uncleanness. It suggests impurity."

    'Covetousness. This is greed."

    Everything he "translated" is found in the TNIV.
     
  14. annsni

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    There is NO translation of Colossians 8:23. Colossians has only 4 chapters. :laugh:
     
  15. AntennaFarmer

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    So he pulled out some words from the TNIV to "translate" the KJV. He could have used something else instead. You don't have much of a point here.

    The only word that I find unusual in this passage is concupiscence. With the modern internet at dictionary.com you can have a full definition in about 30 seconds (my network is slow tonight).
     
  16. AntennaFarmer

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    Perhaps you mean: "“As time passes and English changes, the NIV we have at present is becoming increasingly dated,” said Keith Danby, CEO of Biblica, the copyright holder and translation sponsor of the NIV. “If we want a Bible that English speakers around the world can understand, we have to listen to, and respect, the vocabulary they are using today.”
    Link: http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=14798
     
  17. Rippon

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    I didn't say or imply that he used the TNIV. He probably looked up alternative renderings in other modern versions or consulted commentaries or whatever.

    But why is it necessary to have obsolete words in this age? Besides, if a preacher is speding his time translating the KJV -- it cuts down on actual preaching and application. Cut-to-the-chase and use a modern version.
     
  18. Rippon

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    I knew the quote was in reference to the NIV. It's just that Harold and B4L get so upset when it is pointed out that the KJV family is out-of-date -- I wanted them to get some perspective on the fact that even some relatively modern versions are in need of revision.

    If the quote had been with regard to the KJV it would have made them take their blood pressure meds -- and then they would have said:"This is an unwarranted attack upon the KJV!"
     
  19. EdSutton

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    How strange!

    The two top best-selling English Bibles of all time are both becoming increasingly dated. Hmmm!

    I have noted multiple times that the KJV and NIV are the two best selling English versions of all time, and suggested that there has to be some reason for this. (Strangely, I have yet to receive any satisfactory answer as to the "Why?" of this suggestion, from any POV on the BIble spectrum, regarding this.)

    So - I will suggest that neither the OT nor Apocrypha are usually what is called into question when these discussion ensue, thus leaving the NT as the point of discussion.

    The KJV has taken as the primary textual basis for the NT the Novum Testamentum Graece (TR1598), while the NIV has taken as the primary textual basis for the NT the Novum Testamentum Graece (UBS-2).

    The underlying NT MSS behind these texts are decidedly different in several places, and I would suggest that, generally speaking, these are likely not well understood by those who purchase these Bibles.

    Likewise, there is a decided difference in the philosophy of the translations, which again, I suggest is likely not all that well understood by the "'man' in the pew" when he (or she) purchases a Bible for their own use.

    Yet the KJV and NIV are, and at least into the foreseeable future, seem likely to remain the top-sellers in English, at least in the United States.

    So once again, I'll ask; "Uh- Why is that??" [SIGH!]

    Ed
     
    #19 EdSutton, Sep 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2009
  20. Rippon

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    The "forseeable future" as as its terminal point, the year 2011 for the current NIV.

    Traditionalism.
     

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