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Discussion in 'Politics' started by LillyoftheValley, May 4, 2012.
Thought this was worth sharing:
Honestly, unless there is evidence that the story is fact, I don't believe it. To remove the placenta from the mother will result in the immediate death of the child. It is medically impossible to remove the child then just put it in a uterus, close up the uterus and have a child months later. I'm sorry but I just do not believe it.
However, with all the rhetoric about "war on women," I'm kinda liking the "war on children" phrase....
That war has been going on for too many years.
I don't understand this objection....the story itself serves as self-contained evidence of its truth....did you follow the links in the article to the original source? This was a story published initially in the Harvard Medical Journal 1917...It is here published in e-book form. This particular doctor in Duluth claimed that he performed this surgery....The doctor who retells the story publishes it in this jornal. This surgery may or may not have occured, but as far as I can tell the original physician would have had to be either lying or insane....Or the Doctor initially publishing the story must have been lying himself or confused about what the initial physician reported to him. It is perfectly reasonable to be skeptical and your trepidation is even commendable; but the story itself (initially published in what I would contend is an authoritative source). serves as positive evidence of the truth of this claim.
I was amazed several years ago when I read of surgeons ability to perform open operations on a fetus.
I'm afraid that I have to go with ann, here.
The doctor said that he was careful not to "injure the sac in any way...". I'm sorry, but when he removed the placenta from the body, he stopped the blood flow from the mother to the fetus. The trauma was fatal.
Then he claims to merely "placed the sac at once within the cavity of the opened uterus"? How did the sac re-implant itself? The implantation of a normal blastocyst/embryo in the uterus and the connections made that transfer blood from the mother to the embryo is amazingly complicated for such a tiny cluster of cells.
How would a now dead and non-functioning placenta attach itself to a uterus?
A normal fertilized egg, which is microscopic, has to literally burrow itself into the inner lining of the uterus via hormones and such and a blood flow has to be established. Many times the uterus will detect problems and will not allow the fertilized egg cell to attach.
So how can a now-dead baby whose blood flow to his mother has been torn apart and is the size of a walnut as described by this doctor excrete hormones and implant itself inside the uterus? The uterus would view this "sac" as a foreign object and would expel it.
I just don't believe the story.
Yes, this type of surgery is and has been possible and successful. But in this case the baby and his connection to his mother in the form of the blood flow is not terminated.
You are right, the mother continues to supply blood in open fetal operations.
The article from 1916 is very difficult to consider credible. Surgery was pretty primitive then, compared to now. I wonder if there are other links to this operation that either support or debunk this incident?
This is, no doubt, an amazing story if true: and we should definitely take this with a grain of salt. But I would not be so quick to pass judgement about the "primitiveness" of our ancestors: this is a uniquely post-modern conceit which often shows OUR ignorance more than theirs...
First described in India in 1000 BC, the tonsillectomy procedure increased in popularity in the 1800s, when a partial removal of the tonsil was performed. Because part of the tonsil was left behind, it frequently became hypertrophied and caused recurrence of the obstruction. By the early 20th century, the prevalence of tonsil disease was recognized, and the necessity of complete tonsillectomy was appreciated.
Medical Advances Timeline
460 BCE Birth of Hippocrates, Greek physician and founder of the first university. Considered the father of medicine. Hippocrates bases medicine on objective observation and deductive reasoning, although he does accept the commonly held belief that disease results from an imbalance of the four bodily humors (an idea that persists for centuries).
c.130 CE Birth of Galen, considered by many to be the most important contributor to medicine following Hippocrates. Born of Greek parents, Galen resides primarily in Rome where he is physician to the gladiators and personal physician to several emperors. He publishes some 500 treatises and is still respected for his contributions to anatomy, physiology, and pharmacology.
910 Persian physician Rhazes is the first to identify smallpox, as distinguished from measles, and to suggest blood as the cause of infectious disease.
1590 Dutch lens grinder Zacharius Jannssen invents the microscope 1628 William Harvey publishes An Anatomical Study of the Motion of the Heart and of the Blood in Animals, describing how blood is pumped throughout the body by the heart, and then returns to the heart and recirculates. The book is very controversial but becomes the basis for modern research on the heart and blood vessels. 1656 Experimenting on dogs, English architect Sir Christopher Wren is the first to administer medications intravenously by means of an animal bladder attached to a sharpened quill. Wren also experiments with canine blood transfusions (although safe human blood transfusions only became feasible after Karl Landsteiner develops the ABO blood-typing system in 1900).
1670 Anton van Leeuwenhoek refines the microscope and fashions nearly 500 models. Discovers blood cells and observes animal and plant tissues and microorganisms. 1747 James Lind , a Scottish naval surgeon, discovers that citrus fruits prevent scurvy. He publishes his Treatise of the Scurvy in 1754, identifying the cure for this common and dangerous disease of sailors, although it takes another 40 years before an official Admiralty order dictates the supply of lemon juice to ships.
1796 Edward Jenner develops a method to protect people from smallpox by exposing them to the cowpox virus. In his famous experiment, he rubs pus from a dairymaid's cowpox postule into scratches on the arm of his gardener's 8-year-old son, and then exposes him to smallpox six weeks later (which he does not develop). The process becomes known as vaccination from the Latin vacca for cow. Vaccination with cowpox is made compulsory in Britain in 1853. Jenner is sometimes called the founding father of immunology.
1800 Sir Humphry Davy announces the anesthetic properties of nitrous oxide, although dentists do not begin using the gas as an anesthetic for almost 45 years.
1816 René Laënnec invents the stethoscope.
1818 British obstetrician James Blundell performs the first successful transfusion of human blood. 1842 American surgeon Crawford W. Long uses ether as a general anesthetic during surgery but does not publish his results. Credit goes to dentist William Morton.
1844 Dr. Horace Wells, American dentist, uses nitrous oxide as an anesthetic.
1846 Boston dentist Dr. William Morton demonstrates ether's anesthetic properties during a tooth extraction.
1849 Elizabeth Blackwell is the first woman to receive a medical degree (from Geneva Medical College in Geneva, New York).
1867 Joseph Lister publishes Antiseptic Principle of the Practice of Surgery, one of the most important developments in medicine. Lister was convinced of the need for cleanliness in the operating room, a revolutionary idea at the time. He develops antiseptic surgical methods, using carbolic acid to clean wounds and surgical instruments. The immediate success of his methods leads to general adoption. In one hospital that adopts his methods, deaths from infection decrease from nearly 60% to just 4%.
1870s Louis Pasteur and Robert Koch establish the germ theory of disease. According to germ theory, a specific disease is caused by a specific organism. Before this discovery, most doctors believe diseases are caused by spontaneous generation. In fact, doctors would perform autopsies on people who died of infectious diseases and then care for living patients without washing their hands, not realizing that they were therefore transmitting the disease.
1879 First vaccine for cholera
1881 First vaccine for anthrax
1882 First vaccine for rabies
1890 Emil von Behring discovers antitoxins and uses them to develop tetanus and diphtheria vaccines. 1895 German physicist Wilhelm Conrad Roentgen discovers X rays. 1896 First vaccine for typhoid fever. 1897 Ronald Ross, a British officer in the Indian Medical Service, demonstrates that malaria parasites are transmitted via mosquitoes, although French army surgeon Charles Louis Alphonse Laveran identified parasites in the blood of a malaria patient in 1880. The treatment for malaria was identified much earlier (and is still used today). The Qinghao plant (Artemisia annua) was described in a Chinese medical treatise from the 2nd century BCE; the active ingredient, known as artemisinin, was isolated by Chinese scientists in 1971 and is still used today. The more commonly known treatment, quinine, was derived from the bark of a tree called Peruvian bark or Cinchona and was introduced to the Spanish by indigenous people in South America during the 17th century.
1897 First vaccine for plague. 1899 Felix Hoffman develops aspirin (acetyl salicylic acid). The juice from willow tree bark had been used as early as 400 BC to relieve pain. 19th century scientists knew that it was the salicylic acid in the willow that made it work, but it irritated the lining of the mouth and stomach. Hoffman synthesizes acetyl salicylic acid, developing what is now the most widely used medicine in the world. 1901 Austrian-American Karl Landsteiner describes blood compatibility and rejection (i.e., what happens when a person receives a blood transfusion from another human of either compatible or incompatible blood type), developing the ABO system of blood typing. This system classifies the bloods of human beings into A, B, AB, and O groups. Landsteiner receives the 1930 Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine for this discovery. 1906 Sir Frederick Gowland Hopkins suggests the existence of vitamins and concludes they are essential to health. Receives the 1929 Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine.
1907 First successful human blood transfusion using Landsteiner's ABO blood typing technique 1913 Dr. Paul Dudley White becomes one of America's first cardiologists, a doctor specializing in the heart and its functions, and a pioneer in use of the electrocardiograph, exploring its potential as a diagnostic tool.
1921 Edward Mellanby discovers vitamin D and shows that its absence causes rickets.
1922 Insulin first used to treat diabetes.
Read more: Medical Advances Timeline — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0932661.html#ixzz1u0P0iLZ9
Consider this: It is not as though we have had 100 years of dedication and hard work in the medical community in attempts to save ectopic and tubal pregnancies....since 1916. The difference between medicine then and medicine now would be at least two-fold.
1.) A surgeon then would actually be willing to attempt such a procedure....whereas a modern physician already "KNOWS" that our ancestors were stupid and that there is no hope in such a situation. He would have recited this as a creed before graduating med school.
2.) A modern surgeon would think one and only one thing in this situation:
LAWSUIT, "Danger Will Robinson! Danger!" Malpractice suit enroute...better to simply consign the baby to death now.
As Scarlett and you have agreed, a child that has the placenta detached from the exchange of nutrients/oxygen from the mother is a child who is dead. In these amazing operations on unborn children, the child is still being supported by mom.
In a pregnancy, if the placenta detaches from the womb, the child is doomed unless delivered immediately. If it continues to stay in the mother, it will die because it needs oxygen to live and when the placenta is detached, it is just like smothering a child. How many babies are born stillborn because the umbilical cord knotted? It's because the placenta/umbilical cord is alive and needs to stay attached, bringing vital life to the child. Without these, the child will die.