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Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by mark, Mar 30, 2003.
What is the Doctrine of Transubstantiation?
Are Primitive Baptists 100% Landmarkers? Would someone (like me) who can't trace their Baptism Heritage need to be rebaptized to join a PB church? Brother Glen, where is your church?
Mark, transubstantiation is the catholic belief that the priest, under special dispensation, is able to actually transform the elements of the eucharist into the true blood and body of Jesus. They continue to manifest the incidental earthly form of the wafer and the wine but their essense has been changed. Therefore, partaking of these elements is a very sacred moment. There are even rules about what to do with the leftovers, the priests must consume them all, leaving none to be commonly disposed of. As Baptists, we hold this is false and the elements of the Lord's Supper are never anything but symbols of what Christ did for us on the cross.
A similar doctrine, consubstantiation, is that the Body and Blood of Jesus are with the elements of the Lord's Supper. This was developed by Martin Luther as he made a partial departure from Roman Catholicism.
I see... thank you. Do Primative Baptists believe this?
The notion that the elements are the true blood and body of Christ, it seems to me, can easily lead to a doctrine of theophagic cannibalism. When I was a teenager having problems with God, my little sister was in the children's choir at Rose Hill Presbyterian, and they sang one morning "Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word", and I must say it sounded to me like it would fit better in some vampire movie than in Christian worship:
I still don't find it an attractive lyric to get a bunch of little kids to sing.
On the other hand, Stranger in a Strange Land, a science fiction novel by Robert A. Heinlein, which is about the Eucharist, was one of the books that kept my interest in things Christian alive during my years of alcoholic estrangement from God and church.
"If you do not eat my flesh and drink my blood..." --Jesus
Understanding things symbolically even goes to these words. What I worry about is that in condemning the "true presence" we end up with the "true absence." I affirm a symbolic approach, yet Christ is present in the people partaking--that's what Zwingli intended.
Grace and Peace to my COMMUNION of Brothers and Sisters, Danny
that is a very quite heavy thing for me thats impossible to believe in.well since we have open catholic teachings i might as well as for links of the book canon and trent by rev. hj schoeder.ive seen it its been on sale but i want to get the cheapest one tru the web.
Well, since you brought up Zwingli, a little comparison between Zwingli's and Calvin's concepts:
THE LORD'S SUPPER
After the priest says the words "Hoc est corpus meum" (This is my body) from Matthew 26:26 in the Latin Vulgate, according to the Church of Rome the bread becomes the actual Body of Christ.
The bread is called the Host. The consecrated host can be put into a device called a monstrance to be worshipped and adored. This practice is called the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.
On special occasions the consecrated host is carried about by the priest among the people and worshipped.
Mark... If you joined my church you would have to be rebaptized... We are the rebaptizers!... That is our belief and I didn't post this to argue the validity of it among others... That is our way!
In communion service the bread and the wine are representative of the body and blood of Jesus Christ... Transubstantiation and consubstantiation are not believed by us... And no Primitive Baptist I know of whether progressive or old school/old line believe anything else... Brother Glen
If I joined your church and was rebaptized, would I have evidence then of a direct line back to the apostles?
Just a small (but critical!) clarification. It is the Holy Spirit who transforms the elements, not the priest. Here are the relevant words from the Eucharistic Prayer which the priest says:
"Lord, you are holy indeed,
the fountain of all holiness.
Let your Spirit come upon
these gifts to make them holy,
so that they may become for us,
the body and blood of our Lord,
This Catholic thanks you for your respectful summary of the Catholic belief!
Yours in Christ,